HomeMagazineListingsUpdateLinksContexts

 


 Ballet.co Postings Pages

 Some Special Threads:
  GPDTalk about George Piper Dances ! NEW !
  NBTTalk about Northern Ballet Theatre
  SBTalk about Scottish Ballet
  ENBTalk about English National Ballet
  BRBTalk about Birmingham Royal Ballet
  TodaysLinks - worldwide daily dance links
  Ballet.co GetTogethers - meetings and drinks...

  Help on New Postings


Subject: "Cuts in Beyond Bach" Archived thread - Read only
 
  Previous Topic | Next Topic
Printer-friendly copy     Email this topic to a friend    
Conferences What's Happening Topic #2475
Reading Topic #2475
Bruce Madmin

11-02-02, 08:01 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail Bruce%20M Click to send private message to Bruce%20M Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
"Cuts in Beyond Bach"
 
  
This thread is for continued discussion about the significant cuts that were made in some performances of Beyond Bach. Serious issues were raised on the following thread:
http://www.danze.co.uk/dcforum/happening/2472.html


  Printer-friendly page | Top

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach Brendan McCarthymoderator 11-02-02 1
     RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach Paul A 11-02-02 2
     RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach PhilipBadmin 11-02-02 3
         RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach AEHandley 15-02-02 46
  RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach alison 11-02-02 4
     RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach Rachel 11-02-02 5
         RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach Brendan McCarthymoderator 11-02-02 6
             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach PhilipBadmin 11-02-02 7
                 RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach Mike 11-02-02 8
                     RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach alison 12-02-02 9
                         RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach EmmaL 12-02-02 10
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach Viviane 12-02-02 11
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach Alexandra 12-02-02 12
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach Isobel Houghton 12-02-02 13
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach PhilipBadmin 13-02-02 14
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach Isobel Houghton 13-02-02 16
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach PhilipBadmin 13-02-02 17
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach Brendan McCarthymoderator 13-02-02 18
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach Bruceadmin 13-02-02 19
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach Isobel Houghton 13-02-02 21
                             RE: ROH refunds alison 13-02-02 20
                             RE: ROH refunds EmmaL 13-02-02 22
                             RE: ROH refunds Brendan McCarthymoderator 13-02-02 23
                             RE: ROH refunds Isobel Houghton 13-02-02 24
                             New thread Brendan McCarthymoderator 13-02-02 25
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach Bruce Madmin 13-02-02 15
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach Brendan McCarthymoderator 13-02-02 26
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach Alexandra 13-02-02 27
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach AEHandley 13-02-02 28
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach Bruce Madmin 13-02-02 29
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach Brendan McCarthymoderator 14-02-02 30
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach Viviane 14-02-02 31
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach AnnWilliams 14-02-02 32
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach Isobel Houghton 14-02-02 33
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach AEHandley 14-02-02 34
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach Brendan McCarthymoderator 14-02-02 35
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach Isobel Houghton 14-02-02 37
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach Alexandra 14-02-02 38
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach Robert 14-02-02 39
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach Steven 14-02-02 41
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach Alexandra 15-02-02 44
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach AEHandley 14-02-02 40
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach PhilipBadmin 15-02-02 42
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach Bruceadmin 15-02-02 43
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach AEHandley 15-02-02 45
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach Brendan McCarthymoderator 16-02-02 47
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach AEHandley 16-02-02 49
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach PhilipBadmin 16-02-02 50
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach Brendan McCarthymoderator 16-02-02 51
                             RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach alison 16-02-02 48

Conferences | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic
Brendan McCarthymoderator

11-02-02, 08:37 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail Brendan%20McCarthy Click to send private message to Brendan%20McCarthy Click to add this user to your buddy list  
1. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #0
 
   LAST EDITED ON 11-02-02 AT 10:42 AM (GMT)

I'm repeating, with variations, a message I posted this morning on the old thread.

In reference to Emma's point on the old thread, I got in touch with Michelle Potter, the dance curator of the National Library of Australia. Several years ago she wrote a piece for the Canberra Times about 1914, a ballet by Stephen Baynes, based on a novel by the Australian writer David Malouf. It too had a set by Andrew Carter, who designed Beyond Bach.

It was to have been given in Canberra after a run in Sydney. The Sydney run was problematic because the Opera House stage there is not very big. The Canberra stage was considerably smaller. Stephen Baynes was unhappy at the way 1914 had looked in Sydney. The ballet's aesthetic was dependent on the look of that set and Stephen Baynes was adamant that he would not compromise.

Although the Canberra programme had been advertised, he insisted on grounds of artistic integrity that 1914 would not be performed there. So it beggars belief that he could have agreed to the cuts made to Beyond Bach at the Opera House on Friday and Saturday. Or, if he was compelled to agree, that he was happy that the audience not be told.

At his masterclass at the Linbury last month, Stephen Baynes had majored on that part of the ballet which was left out on Friday and Saturday. He made it extremely clear that it was at the heart of the architecture of Beyond Bach. I would be astonished to visit an art gallery and find that a triptych had become a diptych without any word of explanation, or - as I've said already - to go to an orchestral concert and to find an entire movement dropped from a symphony.

How can we be sure in future, when the RB gives a new and unfamiliar work, that what is being performed is what the choreographer intended?. There is a huge credibility issue here.

The implications for ballet as a serious art are fundamental. Is it just pretty-pretty or does it say something distinctive about the human condition? Can audiences be treated as if they know nothing? Dance audiences are arguably less knowledgeable about dance than music audiences are about music (a consequence of the lack of dance education). But is this licence for a dance company to make a major change to a work and to hope that no-one notices?

These are far-reaching issues of artistic integrity and public accountability and deserve to be debated.



  Printer-friendly page | Top
Paul A

11-02-02, 09:05 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail Paul%20A Click to send private message to Paul%20A Click to add this user to your buddy list  
2. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #1
 
   Nothing new here I'm afraid - the spirit of "show must go on" has always outweighed integrity. Can't think how many compromised performances I've seen over the years. One of LFB in Pulcinella sticks out - too poor to tour the sets the show looked nothing like the photos in the programme.

Think the ROH was wrong in this instance - though was not present - very worrying contempt for the audience.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
PhilipBadmin

11-02-02, 09:49 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail PhilipB Click to send private message to PhilipB Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
3. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #1
 
   >
Dance audiences are arguably less knowledgeable about dance than music audiences are about music (a consequence of the lack of dance education)
<
There's no 'arguably' about it, but it is not just down to the (criminal, IMHO) lack of dance in the school curriculum - after all, just turn on the radio and you have music. TV, whistling, tapes, albums, CDs, MDs, spoons - being audio-only, music is easier to transmit than sculpture, dance and cubism. People will ALWAYS know more about music than dance.

Having said that, why should we swallow all the deep, meaningful artistic 'mumbo-jumbo' given out in interviews, programmes, masterclasses, etc. when the providers of the art don't stick to their own rules. "Well, this lift conveys the depth of anguish being felt by the character at the way the Prince has acted and is central to the whole essence of her future motivation" can now be read as "Well, this lift is a toughie which shows off her legs nicely - but if we forget to do it, no worries."


  Printer-friendly page | Top
AEHandley

15-02-02, 11:01 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail AEHandley Click to send private message to AEHandley Click to add this user to your buddy list  
46. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #3
 
   Your final paragraph may be the most insightful in this thread!


  Printer-friendly page | Top
alison

11-02-02, 01:23 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail alison Click to send private message to alison Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
4. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #0
 
   Coming into this thread a bit late, I have to say that it's by no means the first time the RB has cut a section from a ballet and not had the courtesy to inform the audience beforehand. Some years ago, I went to a matinee of "Anastasia" in which I think William Trevitt injured his back during the first act. As he was supposed to be dancing Kchesskinkaya's partner in the second, and there was nobody available to replace him, the pas de deux was simply cut completely (those familiar with Tchaikovsky's 3rd symphony might have noticed something wrong), and Deborah Bull just had to parade around on stage and basically not do any dancing. Audience members must have wondered why on earth she was listed on the cast sheet! I think, though, that on that occasion an explanation was at least given *after* the act.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Rachel

11-02-02, 02:49 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Rachel Click to send private message to Rachel Click to add this user to your buddy list  
5. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #4
 
   If I remember, the solo that Lescaut's mistress dances in act 1 of 'Manon' was cut one night, as Muriel Valtat was injured shortly before curtain up. Deborah Bull came in to dance act 2.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Brendan McCarthymoderator

11-02-02, 02:55 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Brendan%20McCarthy Click to send private message to Brendan%20McCarthy Click to add this user to your buddy list  
6. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #5
 
   I don't think anyone could take exception to crisis cuts made 'on the hoof' during a performance because of injuries just before curtain, or during the actual ballet itself.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
PhilipBadmin

11-02-02, 03:03 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail PhilipB Click to send private message to PhilipB Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
7. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #6
 
   Absolutely correct, Brendan. That wasn't the point either of us were striving to make, or raise, at all. Orchestras generally have plenty of backups for first violinists - a principal ballerina does not. On-the-night accidents are not the issue here.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Mike

11-02-02, 10:03 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Mike Click to send private message to Mike Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
8. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #7
 
   Having attended on Saturday evening, my comment about the cut would be that I often attend the theatre. As a fairly frequent audience member at Shakespeare plays, I often notice different versions of the play being performed, with varying cuts made. For example, versions of Hamlet that I have seen over the years vary from 3 to 4 1/2 hours in length. I don't necessarily expect to be informed of the exact cuts made in the programme notes.

Continuing in a similar vein, I have seen a number of performances of Nutcracker by various companies. No 2 are exactly the same. Again, I don't expect the programme notes to detail exactly the cuts made.

Whilst the cut made on Saturday was fairly noticable (since 'Air on a G string' is so well known), I don't feel that it adversely affected the piece much (although I must admit that it really wasn't to my personal taste). However, I agree that it would have been appropriate to have announced the cut in the cast-change slip


  Printer-friendly page | Top
alison

12-02-02, 01:24 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail alison Click to send private message to alison Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
9. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #8
 
   >Having attended on Saturday evening, my
>comment about the cut would
>be that I often attend
>the theatre. As a
>fairly frequent audience member at
>Shakespeare plays, I often notice
>different versions of the play
>being performed, with varying cuts
>made. For example, versions
>of Hamlet that I have
>seen over the years vary
>from 3 to 4 1/2
>hours in length. I
>don't necessarily expect to be
>informed of the exact cuts
>made in the programme notes.
>
No, but to continue your theme, if, say, an understudy had gone one, but wasn't word-perfect, and so it was decided to leave out "To be or not to be" you'd expect to be informed, surely?! No theatre would suddenly cut a chunk out of an existing production in mid-run, would they?


  Printer-friendly page | Top
EmmaL

12-02-02, 09:05 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail EmmaL Click to send private message to EmmaL Click to add this user to your buddy list  
10. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #9
 
   The point here is to do with perception surely.
If the decision to cut was taken so late in the day that a prior announcement was deemed inappropriate then an announcement after the ballet had been seen would be even more inappropriate (loved the ballet but what did we miss !). What other options were available? Cut the ballet completely. I think not and if that had happened I think the threads here would have been six times longer and probably had made the national newspapers.
I suppose the risk factor is why we go to live theatre.
Emms


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Viviane

12-02-02, 10:06 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Viviane Click to send private message to Viviane Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
11. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #10
 
   LAST EDITED ON 12-02-02 AT 10:08 PM (GMT)

>The point here is to do with perception surely.....

I am convinced that the central issue here is about performing an 'original' creation (choreography).
I, for one, can't accept that an artistic creation simply can be 'amputated'.
If so -and if this is hardly affecting the piece- than one can ask serious questions about the artistic value of it !
.... and we have to agree with what PhilipB said about swallowing all the artistic talk and fuzz !
A cut to waste choreography has nothing to do with art anymore, it's all about "entertainment" !

>I suppose the risk factor is why we go to live theatre.

I can't agree on this. The 'risk' factor in this case has been underestimated by the artistic direction I'm afraid : an impossible 'interchangeable' second cast .... and fate has strucked !
Going to live theatre is all about little subtle differences in performances, about different casts, about preferences (?).....
live theatre offers an extravagant wealth and is not supposed to offer an unashamed surrogate.

Emma, I'm rather having a problem with : 'I found the ballet a mess...what have I missed ?!


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Alexandra

12-02-02, 11:38 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Alexandra Click to send private message to Alexandra Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
12. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #11
 
   I've been very heartened by reading this thread -- I think it's wonderful that so many people do care. The lack of an announcement rather implies that it was hoped, or assumed, that no one would notice. It is an unusual situation that there are so many injuries that there isn't an understudy available--at least one hopes this is an unusual situation. I've seen other similar situations, and the company has substituted another ballet. Not popular, surely, with a premiere -- and it would certainly ruin that Theme Evening -- but honest. And theatregoers appreciate honesty, I think. Then there would have been complaints, surely, and they would have centered on how management didn't have adequate cover for a new ballet.

When I go to see a ballet, I want to see the whole ballet. I might go to a stock car race for risk, but I've never considered, when settling in, "Do you think they'll give the pas de deux tonight (in, say, "Agon") or will they have to cut the Rose Adagio again because Mary's ankle is acting up." A new dimension in live theatre, surely

I'd posted earlier and cyberspace swallowed the post somehow, so I'll try again. I had a small story about a similar last minute change and its consequences. Years ago in Washington, the New York City Ballet put in a very green, unfortunately unsteady Adam Luders in for Peter Martins in "Chaconne." He and his partner (Suzanne Farrell) did the adagio, but not the solos; there was no slip in the program. After the performance, I went out to dinner with a friend, and who should be at the next table but Peter Martins (who'd been standing in the back during "Chaconne.") A woman came up to him and said, in the nicest possible way, that he was her favorite dancer and she had never seen him dance better than that night.

Alexandra, Editor
Ballet Alert!


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Isobel Houghton

12-02-02, 11:54 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Isobel%20Houghton Click to send private message to Isobel%20Houghton Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
13. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #12
 
   The making of significant cuts within a programme is both morally and ethically poor. Firstly, as a new ballet within a programme by a new choreographer being touted by the new management to an existing audience, that audience had the right to see the ballet in full whether it be the first or fifth or fifthieth performance - the Opera House had the moral obligation to carry out their part of the contract they agreed to with the paying public when it sold them the ticket to deliver the goods for which the audience pays sums which for the majority of people living in Britain are exorbitant or beyond their means. The fact that the Opera house did not and further more did not even feel obliged to make an announcement shows just how much contempt it holds its audience in.

In an interview with Hubert Essakow for Ballet Association Essakow stated that his first performance of The Dream was in fact his dress rehearsal, the cast having been denied even a stage rehearsal. This is disgusting not merely for the performers but also for the audience who are expected to pay the sums the Opera House charges for a product which is barely ready for audience consumption. It is deeply unacceptable. The long running gripe that Royal Ballet first nights are always poor due often to lack of adequate rehearsal time on stage is beyond a joke when one considers that the management see the audience obviously as being unworthy of a product they have paid for or unable or undiscerning enough to detect true quality or patchy performance. A ticket is a contract between you and the management, you pay they deliver and the Royal Opera House are simply not delivering the goods. Substantial cuts in ballets of which the audience are not even made aware of is further renaging on this contract.

There is no excuse and cannot be tolerated. The draconian refund and exchange policy at the Opera House is bad enough, this merely shows just how callous the managament is to its customers.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
PhilipBadmin

13-02-02, 00:14 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail PhilipB Click to send private message to PhilipB Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
14. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #13
 
   Please don't roll out the tired (appropriate for this time of night) old cliche:
"the audience pays sums which for the majority of people living in Britain are exorbitant or beyond their means."
Yawn. Anyone can afford a tenner. Period. The people in the 'cheap' seats are in the same boat as the guys downstairs as regards the artistic integrity here. Are you seriously saying the people in the stalls are MORE ripped off than those in the gods? Surely not. The ticket price rant is irrelevant here and usually misguided in most other cases, too - IMO.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Isobel Houghton

13-02-02, 11:29 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail Isobel%20Houghton Click to send private message to Isobel%20Houghton Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
16. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #14
 
   Anyone can afford a tenner.
>Period.


Really? So a single mother unemployed living hand to mouth on the pittance the state pays out in some dingy council estate can afford 10 out of her weekly budget? Sorry I'd forgotten how egalitarian ballet is.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
PhilipBadmin

13-02-02, 12:02 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail PhilipB Click to send private message to PhilipB Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
17. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #16
 
   Oh live in the real world. You want ballet, cinema, art, theatre for free?! You would need a serious public subsidy for that! If you think that should happen, fine, but don't criticise the entire ballet artform and the ROH in particular simply because they understand that revenues - costs = ticket prices. If there weren't some people paying 66 a ticket there wouldn't be tickets as low as 8 for the rest. Ballet can hardly get any cheaper - it costs more to hire that babysitter or to get there on the train than to see the show!

Why is ballet picked upon so much? If you want to see something like Lion King or Chicago, it will cost you 30-40, just like it does to see the ballet in a decent seat at the House, and a top seat at Sadler's. Why is that not considered elitist? I went to the cinema last week in Leicester Square and it cost 21 for two tix. Egalitarian? The price argument simply does not hold up.

Is ballet elitist because it is too difficult for the average person (whatever that is) to comprehend? So we should dumb down the artform? I think not! Did Picasso make a mistake painting something complex and challenging? Give me a break.

Do you actually think the ballet dancers and staff are all getting rich at our expense with secret bank accounts and laughing at us?

I'd worry more about our 'free' NHS than the fact that it cost me all of 8 to see Bussell's comeback in Nutcracker in December.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Brendan McCarthymoderator

13-02-02, 12:07 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Brendan%20McCarthy Click to send private message to Brendan%20McCarthy Click to add this user to your buddy list  
18. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #17
 
   LAST EDITED ON 13-02-02 AT 12:10 PM (GMT)

Isn't the issue of prices and elitism etc. one for another thread? Isobel's remarks were en passant, and are certainly worth debating - but please not at the expense of the substantive point of this thread. Open a new one!


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Bruceadmin

13-02-02, 12:26 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Bruce Click to send private message to Bruce Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
19. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #18
 
   >Isn't the issue of prices and
>elitism etc. one for another
>thread? Isobel's remarks were en
>passant, and are certainly
>worth debating - but please
>not at the expense of
>the substantive point of this
>thread. Open a new one!
>

I donno - you turn your back for half an hour and there at each others throats!

As Brendan notes, this thread is too important to dilute. Another thread is best for a new and important issue (if ones less likely to resort in the 'punters' consensus seen here)


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Isobel Houghton

13-02-02, 01:35 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Isobel%20Houghton Click to send private message to Isobel%20Houghton Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
21. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #17
 
   I do live in the real world. Which is why I have made the decision to not go to ballet any more. You speak of the arts as a whole, however, you fail to mention that the commercial sector of art has to pay for itself or else the show folds. The Opera House receives the lion's share of the Art's Council budget, a budget set aside for the promotion of art to the whole nation. However, an Opera House in London out of the reach both geographically and financially of the majority of the UK takes money away from art forms and initiatives which could have a far wider reaching impact.

The ongoing debacles concerning the management of the Opera House are a case in point, had the House not had a Royal charter it is highly unlikely that it would have continued to exist, or rather be allowed to continue after the smoke had died down in pretty much the same state.

Ballet comes in for so much knocking because it does not pay for itself, whereas opera makes a profit. Now, I'm not excusing opera from the tarnishment of high art forms, and the also the fact that the seats are on average 40 more expensive accounts for the fact that it can actually pay for itself. Also you mention cinema, theatre etc etc Well, theatre is having a tough time, however if the Lion King (which I have not seen and have no desire to) fails to make a profit, starts to lose 6 a seat at every performance it will close within two weeks. Cinema! Well if you want cheaper tickets than go to a local cinema, yes I agree 10 a ticket is a rip off especially as the buildings are actually owned by the cinema distributors, however, a coffee in Leicester Square costs 2.50. You're in tourist land.

I think it interesting that you immediately assumed that my criticism of prices and quality was levied at the top price seats, the opera house management and policies regarding the cutting of programmes and presentation of programmes inadequately rehearsed renders every seat in the auditorium overpriced. You mention cinema, well if for whatever reason the cinema management decided one night to not show a reel of a film for whatever reason this too would be equally unacceptable.

I am under no illusion that the majority of dancers in companies are paid princely sums and yes the state of widespread funding for the art in this country is atrocious. And moreover I would rather have a functioning NHS or rather one that functions more efficiently with proper funding than an opera house. You also mention art, well art is an accessible form, galleries are free as well they should be. But high art forms demand high prices to keep running use up valuable subsidy and public funds and then exclude the majority of the public. An opera house is a symbol of an uncaring, elite pursuing private pleasures in ignorance of the majority of the population who allow those pleasures to continue through menial work. Indeed in Pygmalion (and not the nauseatingly saccharine My Fair Lady) it is in front of the opera House in Covent Garden that Higgins and Doolittle first meet. Where Doolittle's life is bartered like the cheap entertainment it is for men such as Higgins, she is an amuse bouche after the opera, an appetizer to a post opera supper.

And if dance or rather The Royal Ballet comes in for so much knocking than it is because that as an art form it remains pickled in nostalgic aspic, the programmes themselves have little or no relevance to modern audiences, they can't, they can't afford to be innovative. You say shall we dumb down the art form? Well, it's not that the majority of the population don't understand ballet, it's because they find it pretty "dumb" with absolutely no relevance to their lives, and why should they? What's on offer at the opera house is an ongoing diet of fairy tales twee triple bills, the programming is the only dumb member of the equation, as well as perhaps the audience who actually go to see it, and not as you assume the audience who stay away in droves. Now, I love ballet, I love the art form and I don't consider it dumb, however, the fact that ballet as an art form is perceived as having little or no relevance to most people is ballet's fault itself, for failing to make itself widespread as an art form. Crisp in that pompous interview blamed the BBC well I think the fault is in the Royal Ballet itself, if as the repository of one of the greatest dance heritages on the planet, it is failing as an art form within the society it was created in and for, where else can the blame lie but within the house itself. The Royal because of its charter seems to be exempt from the extensive education codicils smaller companies must adhere to to receive Arts Council funding. If any one is guilty of not living in the real world it is the Royal Ballet itself. The rabid fear which the Opera House management guards its coffers is seen in those deeply mistrustful refund and exchange policies it operates. You basically have an hour and a half before a performance to resell your ticket and there is a legal reason for this too, it allows the House to abnegate responsiblity for the ticket till it comes back into their hands. Again an act of disrespect to its paying public.

And this is the real tone of the thread, the fact that a cut in a ballet is made with absolutely no notice or announcement is the house not taking responsibility for its actions, not taking responsibility for its obligation to its public, an obligation to deliver the goods paid for. And this is inexcusable. It's not the cut in itself, but rather the fact that it does not hold its audience in enough esteem to tell them. It is an act of deep contempt and mistrust.

You tell me to live in the real world. I do, which is why I've decided to get my pleasures elsewhere, in organisations based in the real world and which have a notion and relevance to the problems of the real world and which treat you with respect. Because nothing in the Royal Opera House's treatment of its patrons is worthy of respect.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
alison

13-02-02, 01:28 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail alison Click to send private message to alison Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
20. "RE: ROH refunds"
In response to message #13
 
   Leaving aside questions about "the majority" of the population, I don't really think you can call the ROH's refund/exchange policy "draconian" any more. There are a lot of venues, including publically funded ones, where once you've bought the ticket that's it - tough if you can't make the performance in question. However, it would be a good idea if they changed the terms and conditions as printed on the back of the booking form to tally with what's written under the General Information heading! Condition 3 does say "Tickets are sold subject to the Theatre's right to make any alterations to the programme or cast as a result of circumstances beyond its reasonable control", which is a pretty standard get-out clause.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
EmmaL

13-02-02, 06:29 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail EmmaL Click to send private message to EmmaL Click to add this user to your buddy list  
22. "RE: ROH refunds"
In response to message #20
 
   <<Ballet comes in for so much knocking because it does not pay for itself, whereas opera makes a profit>>
Alison,
May I be so bold as to ask where you obtained the data with which to back up this bold universal statement?
Emms.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Brendan McCarthymoderator

13-02-02, 06:52 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Brendan%20McCarthy Click to send private message to Brendan%20McCarthy Click to add this user to your buddy list  
23. "RE: ROH refunds"
In response to message #22
 
   Emms - I think that was Isobel's point. Like Emms I'd be interested in the data too. I would have thought ballet was less costly; particularly since the Nessun Dorma phenomenon and the huge fees some opera singers can now command.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Isobel Houghton

13-02-02, 07:19 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Isobel%20Houghton Click to send private message to Isobel%20Houghton Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
24. "RE: ROH refunds"
In response to message #22
 
  
>May I be so bold as
>to ask where you obtained
>the data with which to
>back up this bold universal
>statement?
>Emms.

It's not a bold universal statement, dear. Try reading the Art's Council reports into the workings of the opera house following the numerous debacles or the report commissioned by the Art's Council and carried out by Richard Eyre into the workings of the Opera House after another 70 million plus was poured into it.

In the reports detailed summaries of costs were included. When a mean was calculated it was shown that every seat in a ballet auditorium loses 5 whereas every opera seat makes 6. Like I said the seats are considerably pricier, but opera itself costs more to mount (again read an official independent report) and the "stars" fees are considerably higher.

Why else do you think it is Emms that opera performances outnumber ballet by 2 to 1, that the opera is allowed levels of risk and experimentation that the ballet is not frequent new productions, new full length operas even.

Which is also why the box office has such avaricious policies. For instance the refusal to resell tickets until an hour and a half before performance, the refusal to exchange tickets in any booking period outside the current one means that customers are severly limited for choice no matter how much they pay. These are the tactics of an establishment running scared, or rather scared to put the customer first above the financial.

Also on the topic of Beyond Bach, the codicil for refunds or exchanges should a programme be significantly altered would have come into affect should an announcement been made that a whole section of the ballet was being ommitted, indeed it was not the product that people are paying to see. Perhaps one could be cynical and conjecture that the management didn't want to take the risk that a significant section of the audience would have insisted on upholding their consumer rights. Even those in the cheap seats, Phillip.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Brendan McCarthymoderator

13-02-02, 08:49 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Brendan%20McCarthy Click to send private message to Brendan%20McCarthy Click to add this user to your buddy list  
25. "New thread"
In response to message #24
 
   Bruce and I have opened a new thread for discussion of some of the wider issues raised by Isobel and others. It is at http://www.danze.co.uk/dcforum/happening/2486.html . Please can further contributions here be limited to the specific issues surrounding last week's performances of Beyond Bach


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Bruce Madmin

13-02-02, 08:50 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail Bruce%20M Click to send private message to Bruce%20M Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
15. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #10
 
   >The point here is to do
>with perception surely.
>If the decision to cut was
>taken so late in the
>day that a prior announcement
>was deemed inappropriate then an
>announcement after the ballet had
>been seen would be even
>more inappropriate (loved the ballet
>but what did we miss
>!). What other options
>were available? Cut the ballet
>completely. I think not and
>if that had happened I
>think the threads here would
>have been six times longer
>and probably had made the
>national newspapers.
>I suppose the risk factor is
>why we go to live
>theatre.

The weight of feeling is very clear and while I'm sure the ROH might well look in and have a view that may be somewhat different, I doubt that they would find many patrons in a full house who would see what happened as particularly the best practice in the circumstances.

I think on this issue the ROH are probably lagging customers expectations a little. This is not just a dance thing - all those who provide 'things' for customers are coming under increased pressure to be open and clear and even to compensate when things are not as they should be. We never used to know when food was 'best before', what was in it even, and getting a rebate because your water was cut-off or you were bounced off a plane, seemed very alien.

Those who provide entertainment are not isolated from these pressures and its right and proper that customers are told when things change and are not left in the dark - a more emotive term is 'kiddied along'. Right and fair. This doesn't make the lot of producers easier we appreciate, but that's not the foremost issue here.



  Printer-friendly page | Top
Brendan McCarthymoderator

13-02-02, 08:50 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Brendan%20McCarthy Click to send private message to Brendan%20McCarthy Click to add this user to your buddy list  
26. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #15
 
   Any further contributions to this thread should be restricted to the specifics of last Friday's and Saturday's performances at the ROH. For wider issues, please contribute to the new thread at
http://www.danze.co.uk/dcforum/happening/2486.html


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Alexandra

13-02-02, 09:04 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Alexandra Click to send private message to Alexandra Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
27. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #26
 
   Back to the original topic, I'm curious if there are any circumstances under which a cut in the choreography would be tolerated by the Royal Ballet's audience (as ably represented by ballet.co posters)?


  Printer-friendly page | Top
AEHandley

13-02-02, 10:15 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail AEHandley Click to send private message to AEHandley Click to add this user to your buddy list  
28. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #27
 
   Yes - I was quite happy to tolerate the cut as I didn't know what I was missing. I didn't think the evening was that impressive anyway so it wasn't really a big deal for me. I didn't find the first two works offered anything beyond beautiful patterns to music anyway, and as the cut didn't affect either the flow of the music or of the beautiful patterns it didn't bother me. I do see the philosophical point, and in theory I am p*ssed off about it (if not exactly up in arms because as I and others have said cuts happen in all performance arts), but in practice it didn't affect me more than marginally.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Bruce Madmin

13-02-02, 11:12 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Bruce%20M Click to send private message to Bruce%20M Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
29. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #27
 
   Ta Brendan. And can I put in a (gentle) plea for us to be respectful of others in our discussion - I'm concerned that some of the exchanges here are more than robust and could slip into something wholy unacceptable. Nothing here is worth dying for - a few sleepless nights perhaps, but not worth dying for!


...and thanks Alexandra - we do need to explore the boundary of what can be changed without informing the audience and what not. Otherwise it all gets too silly for the companies. So as a rapid start for ten...

I think if a dancer forgets and extemporises - heaven forbid even for quite a few bars, that's something which was unplanned, and just part of that performance and not something that the company needs to highlight.

If the choreographer changes a piece and the intention, at that time, is that the change is going to be permanent then I think that is, by tradition something the company don't say much about. Personally I think such amendments, when they amount to more then a few bars of changed steps, should ideally be documented somewhere in the public domain.

If a choreographer decides to drop a complete number - for their own reasons, I think the audience should be made aware for the first few performances of the change that the choreographer is exercising their right to improve the work and the following change has been made.

If a significant change is made to a serious piece and those changes are not for artistic reasons the audience needs to be told - you can't have people thinking they have seen a work when they have not. This may result in some bad feeling, but it happens rarely of course. But I think you have to truthful on such occasions. If time permits management may decide to put on a separate pdd by way of recompense?


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Brendan McCarthymoderator

14-02-02, 09:29 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail Brendan%20McCarthy Click to send private message to Brendan%20McCarthy Click to add this user to your buddy list  
30. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #29
 
   LAST EDITED ON 14-02-02 AT 10:38 AM (GMT)

Although I have said some very hard things about the RB in this and the preceding thread, I think there are some extenuating factors. Management attention by the end of last week must have been heavily focused on getting Bayadere right (and by all accounts they have succeeded magnificently). Beyond Bach had probably drifted into peripheral vision.

The decisions made about Friday and Saturday bear all the signs of crisis management. It was probably inevitable that the programme had to go on as advertised. I think the RB would have done enough had they flagged up the alterations to the 'Bach' running order along with the various cast changes. The point at issue is the silence about the structure of Beyond Bach.

Many of us make bad calls under duress, and are lucky if such misjudgements are not publicly noticed. Hopefully the RB will recognise that this was a 'bad call' and learn from the experience.

On the wider issue, I suspect choreographers tinker with their pieces long after they have beeen first made. They remain 'works in progress'. Only the committed student or dancegoer is likely to care very much about such detail. But it should, as Bruce says, be somewhere in the public domain.

Where a company changes a work in a way that is at serious variance with the choreographer's intent, the public should be told. Any 'crisis' changes should be made in the most extenuating circumstances only. And the choreographer should always have a veto.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Viviane

14-02-02, 10:21 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail Viviane Click to send private message to Viviane Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
31. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #30
 
   >Management attention by the end of last
>week must have been heavily focused on getting Bayadere right

Hmm...isn't this a bit of a weak excuse ?
One can ask if there are not too many new productions (and/or new roles to dancers) sqeezed into too short space of time.
Think the dancers have been under a terrible amount of pressure...and so, injuries were inevitable ?

Indeed, we don't have to force the issue ...I was simply flabbergasted by the way one is treating a choreography.
It would be very interesting to hear from some choreographers,
how they would cope with such an attack on their creation.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
AnnWilliams

14-02-02, 11:55 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail AnnWilliams Click to send private message to AnnWilliams Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
32. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #31
 
   It does seem to me that the nub of this issue is that if any significant change - particularly a cut - is made to a work which has previously been performed in public, then it has to be assumed that the changes will be obvious to at least some of the paying audience. (Note that 'paying'; I sometimes feel that ROH management forgets that its ticket-buying public is a rather important element in the marketing process). Note also that by all accounts -I didn't see 'Beyond Bach' - the missing section was central and vital the the whole work, so it must have been obvious to the management that it's omission would be noticed.

I hope the RB takes note of this thread, so that next time a significant change to to any previously-performed work is necessary (however late in the day) they will know how to handle it.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Isobel Houghton

14-02-02, 01:34 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Isobel%20Houghton Click to send private message to Isobel%20Houghton Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
33. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #32
 
   I've been very harsh elsewhere in this thread, but only because this is probably one of the most important issues concerning ballet as an art form.

To make such an obvious cut to the integrity of a piece whatever the circumstances and still not tell the audience goes beyond questions of decency. It is morally and ethically wrong.

The fact it was a minor piece is moot. It is the fact that it was done and in such an underhand way that is the issue.

It tarnishes the reputation integrity of the organisation, it deeply contemptuous of the audience and is inexcusable.

Ballet is in trouble, financially and as is often talked about on this site, artistically too. Now more than ever it needs the support and patronage of its audience, and these actions have damaged relations with the one sector who could effectively put ballet back on its feet - the audience. And in particular an audience who would like to feel that the Royal Ballet is responding to their needs and desire for quality new ballets, and who values them as customers.

Whether the cuts came in Beyoned Bach, The Nutcracker, Swan Lake is not the issue, the issue is that the Royal Opera House has seriously abused the good will of its patrons. I hope someone somewhere is feeling ashamed.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
AEHandley

14-02-02, 05:42 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail AEHandley Click to send private message to AEHandley Click to add this user to your buddy list  
34. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #33
 
   Underhand? No, just thoughtless. And if you really think that this is the biggest issue facing ballet at the moment I'm surprised! Morally and ethically wrong - come on, it's only dancing. They SHOULD have announced the cut - they didn't. They probably didn't because most people wouldn't notice. They're not the first organisation to do it and they won't be the last. It was a bit off, certainly - but let's all calm down a bit now, shall we?


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Brendan McCarthymoderator

14-02-02, 06:11 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Brendan%20McCarthy Click to send private message to Brendan%20McCarthy Click to add this user to your buddy list  
35. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #34
 
   LAST EDITED ON 14-02-02 AT 06:11 PM (GMT)

Anneliese,

While this thread may be reaching a natural close, I have to disagree most strongly with you. There are fundamental moral and ethical issues involved. They mirror those I have faced in my own work-life and, I'm sure, in the experiences of many others.

As a radio and television producer, I've had to think carefully about what editorial cuts did to the integrity of a programme and how they stacked up in terms of fair dealing both towards contributors and viewers. Ethically I found the issues involved in the 'Beyond Bach' case to be very similar. They were well worth debating.

You and I may take different views, but whatever our varying conclusions, these are not small issues. You might as well say 'it's only television', or 'it's only radio'. I think that ballet is important, that it matters very much as an art, and that it is no more an ethics free zone than is any other social activity or institution. And I doubt that many contributors to ballet.co would agree with the astonishing proposition that "it is only dancing"

I am prepared to leave this issue alone now, but please not us not delude ourselves that it is somehow of no account.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Isobel Houghton

14-02-02, 08:01 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Isobel%20Houghton Click to send private message to Isobel%20Houghton Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
37. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #34
 
  
Hmmm, I'm not sure that someone who sees an art form as being "only dancing" has the necessary critical faculties to comment properly on this issue. You criticise me for not being aware of the real problems facing dance, yet how can you comment at all as all you see is "only dancing".

However, I will say an organisation's integrity and worth is measured by its treatment of all parties in that organisation, of which an audience is a huge part, especially in performance arts without whose patronage the organisation itself will die.

So let's not calm down, shall we? You abnegate culpability on the ROH's part by saying they were sure the audience wouldn't notice, and if this is so you prove my point surrounding the moral and ethical issues of a substantial cut, a deliberate action to lie, yes lie, to it's audience and the utter contempt it has for that same audience as well as contempt for the product they are presenting, that they see the integrity of a work of art (and Beyond Bach) to be so neglible that it can be presented in any format they choose.

It is not a small issue, it is a huge one as it calls into question the validity of the ROH as an organisation and the basis by which they the carry out their relationship both artistic and professional with the public.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Alexandra

14-02-02, 08:43 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Alexandra Click to send private message to Alexandra Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
38. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #37
 
   La danse, c'est un question morale. (Balanchine)


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Robert

14-02-02, 10:07 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Robert Click to send private message to Robert Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
39. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #38
 
   La danse, c'est un question morale. (Balanchine)
He could talk!


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Steven

14-02-02, 11:11 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Steven Click to send private message to Steven Click to add this user to your buddy list  
41. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #39
 
   Yes, but could he talk French?

I believe it's une question, not un!


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Alexandra

15-02-02, 07:23 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Alexandra Click to send private message to Alexandra Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
44. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #41
 
   >Yes, but could he talk French?
>
>
>I believe it's une question, not
>un!


Steven, I'm sure that Balanchine spoke perfect French, unlike me


  Printer-friendly page | Top
AEHandley

14-02-02, 10:44 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail AEHandley Click to send private message to AEHandley Click to add this user to your buddy list  
40. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #37
 
   >
>Hmmm, I'm not sure that someone
>who sees an art form
>as being "only dancing" has
>the necessary critical faculties to
>comment properly on this issue.
>You criticise me for not
>being aware of the real
>problems facing dance, yet how
>can you comment at all
>as all you see is
>"only dancing".
>
Ah, but I don't see ballet as the pinnacle of artistic achievement. Doesn't mean I think it's valueless in artistic terms and it certainly doesn't mean that I don't know enough to criticise. I don't think artistic integrity is negligible, either - I just wasn't very bothered about it in this piece but I suppose I might have had a higher opinion of the artistic worth of the piece if I'd seen it all And even if it WERE high art - well, it's only art, it's not life and death, and THAT's why I think the words "moral" and "ethical" are misapplied in this context.

You abnegate culpability on
>the ROH's part by saying
>they were sure the audience
>wouldn't notice,

No, I wasn't abnegating culpability - I was postulating a reason.

I don't think that the failure to announce the cut was malicious, underhand or contemptuous - just thoughtless, rude and silly.

Oh, and by the way, the reason I thought it might be sensible to calm down was that it seems that there is nothing left to say on the topic and I personally find the immoderate tone of the posts on this subject rather inappropriate. It seems I'm alone in this, though, so I apologise for my different perspective.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
PhilipBadmin

15-02-02, 07:53 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail PhilipB Click to send private message to PhilipB Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
42. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #40
 
   > I personally find the immoderate tone of the posts on this subject rather inappropriate. <

Well, I think that is my fault. I've re-read the posts and, although I stand by the views I expressed, I feel unhappy about my tone. My excuse is that I was, literally, rushing to defend my beloved artform, ballet, from what I perceived to be an unreasonable and aggressive attack by Isobel. One should never post in a rush, especially when angry.

I apologise to Isobel in particular, and the rest of you who may have been made to feel uncomfortable or too intimidated to post.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Bruceadmin

15-02-02, 08:21 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail Bruce Click to send private message to Bruce Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
43. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #42
 
   It's good to see some reflection and apologies even, in a number of posts, about whats been said or more importantly the way it was said. The debate has not been as civilised as it should, but we realise the importance, unusual nature of the issue, and have given some latitude.

Its been stimulating and I hope other discussion are too - but without the hard personal touches that don't add to any of the arguments and merely stand to put people off. The one final thing I'd note is that on the core issue of the Beyond Bach cuts *all* the fans/reporters/reviewers who have posted here have been united in the view that it should have been handled differently.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
AEHandley

15-02-02, 10:54 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail AEHandley Click to send private message to AEHandley Click to add this user to your buddy list  
45. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #43
 
   And I owe an apology to those of you who thought I was too flippant about this.

Can I slightly change the stance on this thread? What would have been your view IF THE CUT HAD BEEN ANNOUNCED? Under what circumstances are cuts acceptable?

My take - I've thought about this over the last 24 hours - is that in abstract ballets of this nature, if you haven't been tutored by the choreographer in what each moment represents, then your (the audience's) opinion is the only valid one and if it works for you with the cut, that's fine.

This subject has been bothering me slightly since I read Ms Bull on the subject of Forsythe - she said something along the lines of "without a real understanding, Forsythe's work is just gymnastics to music". I have to say, that's what it is for most of us - because we, the audience, aren't party to Forsythe's own interpretation of the meaning of his acrobatics. And if we need to be told what it means, then maybe he didn't say it right...

Just my 2p.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Brendan McCarthymoderator

16-02-02, 08:14 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail Brendan%20McCarthy Click to send private message to Brendan%20McCarthy Click to add this user to your buddy list  
47. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #45
 
   LAST EDITED ON 16-02-02 AT 09:15 AM (GMT)

Please can Anneliese cite chapter and verse of the Deborah Bull quote?

I'll reply in detail later today, but for those who haven't seen it, I did write a short essay on Stephen Baynes for the February ballet.co magazine.

This issue is very serious. At a time when religion has been eclipsed for many, the arts have an even more pivotal role in society in mediating experiences of depth. The issue of good faith, both for creative and interpretative artists, becomes even more important than it is already. It is clear that Baynes, writing from a non-religious perspective, intended Beyond Bach to be an expression of depth, in Valerie Lawson's words, his "love poem to ballet". Whether people think he succeeded or not, his intent deserves respect in the way it is realised.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
AEHandley

16-02-02, 03:16 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail AEHandley Click to send private message to AEHandley Click to add this user to your buddy list  
49. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #47
 
   >
>Please can Anneliese cite chapter and
>verse of the Deborah Bull
>quote?
>
Sorry, no - I've just checked her book and it's not there. It must have been in some newspaper piece. Maybe it's on her website somewhere.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
PhilipBadmin

16-02-02, 08:43 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail PhilipB Click to send private message to PhilipB Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
50. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #47
 
   Hi Brendan,

I found this in Dancing Away - 14th Feb 1998:
"Forsythe choreography without thought behind it can become a bit of a knees-up, and just kicking your legs around is fun for about five minutes."



  Printer-friendly page | Top
Brendan McCarthymoderator

16-02-02, 08:58 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Brendan%20McCarthy Click to send private message to Brendan%20McCarthy Click to add this user to your buddy list  
51. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #50
 
   Thanks Philip. Recently a dance scholar who specialises in Forsythe's work told me that the dramaturge who worked with him on Eidos:Telos had assembled a workbook for the production approximating in size to two volumes of the London telephone directory. It was chock-full of ideas.

Not that Sadler's gave us any flavour of that when ET came to town. Other theatres at which ET has been given were rather more considerate towards their audiences. At least the ROH will never be faulted on this score. Their programme notes are always scrupulously researched.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
alison

16-02-02, 01:56 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail alison Click to send private message to alison Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
48. "RE: Cuts in Beyond Bach"
In response to message #45
 
   Well, *if* they'd come on stage beforehand and said something along the lines of "we've had last-minute injuries and don't have a suitable replacement cast rehearsed for this section, so have decided to cut it, I think I'd have been disappointed but accepted it (and this thread would probably never have happened!). It was just the fact that (I gather, having not bought a programme) the section was listed in the programme and then cut without explanation that I think was unacceptable.


  Printer-friendly page | Top

Conferences | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic

 
Questions or problems regarding this bulletin board should be directed to Bruce Marriott