HomeMagazineListingsUpdateLinksContexts

 


 Ballet.co Postings Pages

 Some Special Threads:
  GPDTalk about George Piper Dances ! NEW !
  NBTTalk about Northern Ballet Theatre
  SBTalk about Scottish Ballet
  ENBTalk about English National Ballet
  BRBTalk about Birmingham Royal Ballet
  TodaysLinks - worldwide daily dance links
  Ballet.co GetTogethers - meetings and drinks...

  Help on New Postings


Subject: "Danse classique:politique et idéologie." Archived thread - Read only
 
  Previous Topic | Next Topic
Printer-friendly copy     Email this topic to a friend    
Conferences What's Happening Topic #2033
Reading Topic #2033
serge

25-08-01, 10:06 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail serge Click to send private message to serge Click to add this user to your buddy list  
"Danse classique:politique et idéologie."
 
   Pour en revenir à l'état de la danse classique en France , il me semble que c'est un problème essentiellement politique.Il est évident que quatorze ans de socialisme n'ont pas beaucoup aidé la danse classique.Comparez seulement ce qu'il en était à la fin des années 70 et l'état actuel de la danse classique , que ce soit le nombre de compagnies purement classiques , les subventions accordées au classique , les magazines de danse , etc...Vous avez sans doute pu remarquer que Les Saisons de la danse est devenu , après le décès de monsieur Hersin , un magazine exclusivement consacré à la danse contemporaine.

Un certain ministre de la culture de gauche qui a exercé pendant bien trop longtemps a participé entre autres à cette volonté de destruction de la danse classique en France.Pour la gauche et l'extrême-gauche , la danse classique est le symbole de la monarchie , un art qui leur semble beaucoup trop élitiste pour séduire les masses.C'est purement idéologique.Et pourtant ces messieurs qui se disent de gauche vivent comme des rois et ne se privent pas d'aller à l'Opéra , gratuitement et dans des loges privées , cela va de soi.Voyez l'hypocrisie...Il semble même qu'un certain monsieur Langue ait beaucoup apprécié quelques jeunes et jolis danseurs qui lui semblaient bien "appétissants"...Au Moyen-Age , on appelait cela le droit de cuissage.Il semble qu'on en soit resté là...Si ces messieurs du ministère passaient moins de temps à faire des parties fines , ils auraient peut-être la tête suffisamment lucide pour s'apercevoir de l'état désastreux de la danse classique en France mais s'en soucient-ils vraiment? Malheureusement non et le seul régime qui puisse sauver la danse classique en France est sans doute la monarchie.


  Printer-friendly page | Top

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie. Valérie 25-08-01 1
     RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie. Bruce Madmin 25-08-01 2
         Critical Dance Venus 27-08-01 3
             RE: Critical Dance sylvia 28-08-01 4
                 RE: Critical Dance lara 29-08-01 37
             RE: Critical Dance pmeja 28-08-01 5
                 RE: Critical Dance Renee Renouf 28-08-01 6
             RE: Critical Dance Kevin Ng 28-08-01 8
             RE: Critical Dance felursus 28-08-01 9
             RE: Critical Dance Anneliese 28-08-01 19
             RE: Critical Dance Jonathan 28-08-01 25
                 RE: Critical Dance Anneliese 29-08-01 28
         RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie. Karen 28-08-01 7
             RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie. Joanne 28-08-01 10
                 RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie. Brendan McCarthymoderator 28-08-01 11
                     RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie. Valérie 28-08-01 12
                         RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie. Brendan McCarthymoderator 28-08-01 13
                             RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie. Tim Powell 28-08-01 15
                             RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie. Catherine 28-08-01 16
                             RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie. Anneliese Handley 28-08-01 17
                             RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie. Catherine 28-08-01 18
                             RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie. Anneliese 28-08-01 20
                             RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie. Catherine 28-08-01 21
                         RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie. Shirley 28-08-01 14
                             RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie. Marie 28-08-01 22
                             RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie. Catherine 28-08-01 23
                             RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie. Marie 28-08-01 24
                             Valerie and Venus Update Bruce Madmin 29-08-01 26
                             RE: Valerie and Venus Update Anneliese 29-08-01 27
                             RE: Valerie and Venus Update Ann Williams 29-08-01 29
                             RE: Valerie and Venus Update Catherine 29-08-01 31
                             RE: Valerie and Venus Update Maxime 29-08-01 34
                             RE: Valerie and Venus Update Catherine 29-08-01 35
                             RE: Valerie and Venus Update Bruce Madmin 29-08-01 36
                             RE: Valerie and Venus Update robert 29-08-01 30
                             RE: Valerie and Venus Update Brendan McCarthymoderator 29-08-01 32
                             RE: Valerie and Venus Update Pierre 29-08-01 33
                             RE: Valerie and Venus Update Kevin 29-08-01 38
                             RE: Valerie and Venus Update Alex 29-08-01 39
                             RE: Valerie and Venus Update Alex 29-08-01 40
                             RE: Valerie and Venus Update Alex 29-08-01 41
                             RE: Valerie and Venus Update Terry Amos 29-08-01 42
                             RE: Valerie and Venus Update Brendan 29-08-01 43
                             RE: Valerie and Venus Update Shirley 30-08-01 44
                             RE: Valerie and Venus Update sylvia 30-08-01 56
                             RE: Valerie and Venus Update Pete 30-08-01 45
                             RE: Valerie and Venus Update Karen 30-08-01 46
                             RE: Valerie and Venus Update Emma Pegler 30-08-01 47
                             RE: Valerie and Venus Update Richard J 30-08-01 48
                             Moving towards wrapping up this thread Bruce Madmin 30-08-01 49
                             RE: Moving towards wrapping up this thread pmeja 30-08-01 50
                             RE: Moving towards wrapping up this thread Pierre 30-08-01 51
                             RE: Moving towards wrapping up this thread John W. 30-08-01 52
                             RE: Moving towards wrapping up this thread Bruce Madmin 30-08-01 53
                             RE: Moving towards wrapping up this thread Bruce Madmin 30-08-01 54
                             RE: Valerie and Venus Update Karen 30-08-01 55
                             Critical Dance bashing lara 30-08-01 57
                             RE: Critical Dance Shirley 31-08-01 59
                             RE: Valerie and Venus Update Pauline 30-08-01 58
                             RE: Valerie and Venus Update Robert 31-08-01 60
                             RE: Valerie and Venus Update Bruceadmin 01-09-01 62
                             RE: Valerie and Venus Update Stuart Sweeney 01-09-01 63
                             RE: Valerie and Venus Update - response Bruceadmin 01-09-01 64
                             RE: Valerie and Venus Update - response Bruceadmin 02-09-01 65

Conferences | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic
Valérie

25-08-01, 10:22 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail Val%E9rie Click to send private message to Val%E9rie Click to add this user to your buddy list  
1. "RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie."
In response to message #0
 
   Il y a justement tout un débat à ce sujet-là sur criticaldance. Ceci étant vous avez totalement raison.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Bruce Madmin

25-08-01, 11:24 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail Bruce%20M Click to send private message to Bruce%20M Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
2. "RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie."
In response to message #1
 
   I've said much of this before but it's worth repeating...

We really don't think its polite to assume that there is only one place where talk about French ballet and dance can happen.

We have some very lively debates here about all things - but we aren't arrogant enough to go into others sites space and tell them we have 20 threads, each of 30 contributions, on this or that issue or that we are the only place to be. Let other sites develop as they need.

I remember when we were the only dance site that had a postings page and now there are several and we live at ease with many of them. In exactly the same way as you post I could have added a note on every thread elsewhere about Ballet.co covering UK ballet particularly well. But this is no way forward. We accept that some people like to post elsewhere and you really have to accept that too.

With regard to your own postings you seem only to abuse our hospitality - this is a place for people who actively want to contribute not a place to be used purely as an advertising hoarding because you prefer it somewhere else. I you don't like us, don't read us and let us carry on as we like.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Venus

27-08-01, 11:45 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Venus Click to send private message to Venus Click to add this user to your buddy list  
3. "Critical Dance "
In response to message #2
 
   To anyone who is seriously interested in dance I would strongly advise you to ignore the previous posting and check out Critical dance's website.

Not only is it far more informative, relevant and interesting, it also does not have the village fete fanzine mentality of this site. It would in no way damn other sites or get tetchy when posters recommend other sites either.

The initial thread of this posting was one well worth pursuing, however, the visitors to Ballet.co.uk have no desire to analyse dance on any real or intellectual level. So interested as they are in swooning over Adam Cooper and spouting their reactionary, middle-class drivel.

I for one urge anyone who truly loves dance to check out the other sites. This one is stuck in the 1950's.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
sylvia

28-08-01, 00:34 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail sylvia Click to send private message to sylvia Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
4. "RE: Critical Dance "
In response to message #3
 
   I've been pretty quiet about this subject up until now, but I'm getting pretty tired of the repeated attacks on ballet.co.

I think most people who are seriously interested in ballet or dance are completely aware of all the other quality websites and visit them on a regular basis. It is completely unnecessary to keep ramming their virtues down our throats. The different boards are here for different purposes and thus attract differen6t people. I think we can make our minds up for ourselves.

Furthermore, I think you are being completely disrespectful in urging people to ignore Bruce's post. Firstly, this is a website that he created. Secondly, he grants posters extraordinary freedom, unparallelled on any other board. It allows us to be both frivolous and serious, and is thus a strong attraction for people such as myself.

Ballet.co IS informative, relevant and interesting, and even in the face of competition, remains one of the best resources for ballet on the web. If you want evidence of intelligent analysis, take a look at the archives. You're being unfair in criticising the website in between seasons when it's inevitable that this and every other board will be quiet and discussion is limited.

And finally, if you're trying to convince people to come around to your point of view, you're best off not insulting them. I dare say there are a number of Adam Cooper fans on this board and around the world, and if this site lets them swoon over him, then all credit to it.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
lara

29-08-01, 09:48 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail lara Click to send private message to lara Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
37. "RE: Critical Dance "
In response to message #4
 
   I'm with Sylvia on this one. I read all three ballet sites mentioned and contribute on all three without making a value judgements on which is best - all three are different and offer me a variety of choices to read and pursue.

I find this whole thing very distressful and can't believe that posters would come to this wonderful ballet.co site and then trash it!

lara


  Printer-friendly page | Top
pmeja

28-08-01, 02:16 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail pmeja Click to send private message to pmeja Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
5. "RE: Critical Dance "
In response to message #3
 
   I really don't know who you are, but rest assured, the people who are here are here because they feel comfortable, welcome and encouraged, as opposed to the empty accusations you are making against this site's most distinguished history and very open and inviting atmosphere. Your remarks read suspiciously as though you were trying to provoke someone on the site to make remarks against criticaldance just so you could jump on them for having done it. I suspect that you won't find anyone willing to sink to that level. If someone is happy with that site, that's fine. And if someone is happy with this one, just as well. But your remarks ring empty and untrue and I am disgusted with them.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Renee Renouf

28-08-01, 06:51 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail Renee%20Renouf Click to send private message to Renee%20Renouf Click to add this user to your buddy list  
6. "RE: Critical Dance "
In response to message #5
 
   I am glad to see that ballet.co has such terrific, articulate and loyal readers. It's a pity that Venus must resort to what I can only consider supremely bitchy tactics. If provoked, I can cat with the best of them, but this latest outburst sounds like yet another use of archetypal label that lacks all the lark and inspiration we have found on ballet.co on the first day of the fourth month.

Venus strikes me as the type who usually gets cast as the ash can demon. Of course, if we want to have a Edward Gorey ballet, this could provide something even sinuous than the Black Queen in Walt Disney's Snow White! I'd love to know what choreographic invention Venus might possibly provide for Laughs a Lot! Shall we have scales or arpeggios on this snake which lacks the courage to become a genuine dragon?


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Kevin Ng

28-08-01, 08:49 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail Kevin%20Ng Click to send private message to Kevin%20Ng Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
8. "RE: Critical Dance "
In response to message #3
 
   >village fete fanzine mentality of
>this site.

It sounds like you haven't been reading this website for very long.

>no way damn other sites
>or get tetchy when posters
>recommend other sites either.

But to be fair, I can't think of any member of this website posting on other sites to publicise Ballet.co in a similar fashion.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
felursus

28-08-01, 08:58 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail felursus Click to send private message to felursus Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
9. "RE: Critical Dance "
In response to message #3
 
   I completely agree with Sylvia and pmeja's points. You are being extremely rude to post in this manner on and about someone's web site - a site that the rest of us like and respect. You seem to be the only poster on this site who is filled with such acrimony. I strongly suggest that if you dislike Ballet.co so much that you stop posting all together. I, for one, shall not miss you.

I shall not sink so low as to point out certain deficiencies I have observed on the Critical Dance site. Each list owner is free to run his/her list in the manner they choose. Basically: if you don't like it here, shut up and leave. I also suggest that if you feel strongly about an issue, and you do have every right to your own opinions, (but not to express yourself in a rude manner), then surely you should stand by that opinion and use your own name. Unlike pmeja, I DO have a strong feeling I know who you are. Any board, whether it be about dance, music, motorcar racing, home decorating has a right to its own style. It also is NOT a place to tout the virtues of another, similar site. It is one thing to MENTION that a similar discussion/more information is available elsewhere, (see my defense of Valerie), but to tell people to leave one site and join another is beyond despicable.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Anneliese

28-08-01, 01:27 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Anneliese Click to send private message to Anneliese Click to add this user to your buddy list  
19. "RE: Critical Dance "
In response to message #3
 
   I'm fascinated by your posting (btw enjoyed your post on Y.Z and the hair dye), particularly your assessment of the frequenters of this site as being (a) non-intellectual (b) middle-class and (c) reactionary. Hmmmmmm, what a combination! However, in the interests of fairness I have spent 40 minutes looking at criticaldance. I found some interesting threads there (although I would say that the reviews I read were no more nor less intellectually rigorous, technically accurate or middle class reactionary than those I read here), and particularly enjoyed some of the technical discussions (but failed to find the French political debate referred to in this thread), but on the whole found the site less appealing than this one - it was a lot more effort to navigate around and didn't give me the quick scan ability that this site does. I also found it a bit overly pc (or do I mean a bit American )- I think we're a bit more open and down to earth here! The two sites offer different things, that's for sure.

As for stuck in the 50s - well, I wouldn't know, I'm not that old. What a lot of bile there is around at the moment. There has been a spate of acrimonious resignations from totally unrelated forum I visit lately - I can only assume that the weather is getting to people! Hope things calm down soon, this site is supposed to bring some cheer into my day, not stress me out - and I think that most contributors view it in the same way. Perhaps some of the more aggressive posters could bear this in mind? (or perhaps those of us with a burning need to discuss trivia should go to the chat page more often...)


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Jonathan

28-08-01, 10:23 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Jonathan Click to send private message to Jonathan Click to add this user to your buddy list  
25. "RE: Critical Dance "
In response to message #3
 
   Oh for heaven's sake - there are few occupations more essentially bourgeois than the critical analysis of an art form that can be as easily enjoyed without it. Moreover, the derogatory remarks about Adam Cooper fans are typically middle-class assertions, proposing as they do the superiority of aesthetic reflection over visceral enjoyment, to paraphrase Bourdieu's Distinction. And as for being stuck in the 1950s, what could be more 80s than calling people reactionary?

My impression is that Venus is guilty of no more or less than flaming. Bruce could do worse than create a forum which acts as a virtual oubliette for suspected flames, pour encourager les autres, so to speak.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Anneliese

29-08-01, 03:53 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Anneliese Click to send private message to Anneliese Click to add this user to your buddy list  
28. "RE: Critical Dance "
In response to message #25
 
   Hear hear! I was going to say "for heaven's sake it's only dancing around to music" but you put it rather better....


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Karen

28-08-01, 08:36 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail Karen Click to send private message to Karen Click to add this user to your buddy list  
7. "RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie."
In response to message #2
 
   Bruce, I understand why you reacted as you did to Valerie's posting, but I don't think she overstepped the bounds here. She merely mentions that there has been a lengthy discussion on another site about this issue which, perhaps, the original poster might like to peruse. It would, in retrospect, have been better for her to wait a little to see what response the original posting might receive before encouraging him to view another site, but THIS posting, in itself, is not, shall we say, of a suspicious nature.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Joanne

28-08-01, 10:12 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail Joanne Click to send private message to Joanne Click to add this user to your buddy list  
10. "RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie."
In response to message #7
 
   I am a Moderator on criticaldance and as we have been mentioned several times here, I feel that some brief input is appropriate. I have checked with my colleagues and we do not know who Valerie and Venus are.

From our side, ballet.co is a website that supports dance in a variety of ways and we hope it continues to prosper for many years to come.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Brendan McCarthymoderator

28-08-01, 10:24 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail Brendan%20McCarthy Click to send private message to Brendan%20McCarthy Click to add this user to your buddy list  
11. "RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie."
In response to message #10
 
   First of all - apologies to Serge. His decision to post on ballet.co deserves respect and he is entitled to have his substantive points debated here. Valerie and Venus should tell us who they are. I haven't found any contributions by them in the place to which they are so anxious to direct our intention. This makes me very suspicious.

A word about myself. I am a professional journalist. My background is in political and economic journalism, rather than in the arts. I was very well aware of the various dance websites before deciding in April that I liked ballet.co and wanted to write for it. Until then I did not know Bruce or any of the other contributors. What drew me here was the intelligence and good manners of the site coupled to a real sense of fun. Also, unlike any other site, ballet.co was clearly European; in a world of globalisation this mattered to me a lot. Ballet.co's accent is very distinctive, Bruce's sheer humanity shines through the site, and it has eccentricities that I really like. Yes, I could live with a few less postings about Adam Cooper; but the dance audience is diverse - and I believe we should all tolerate each other. I fall with pleasure on a posting by Isobel Houghton or Susie Crow - but the fanzine dimension is part of the rich tapestry. A relentlessly intellectual site would be a lot less fun.

Joanne's posting is welcome. Hopefully it can draw a line under this.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Valérie

28-08-01, 11:15 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail Val%E9rie Click to send private message to Val%E9rie Click to add this user to your buddy list  
12. "RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie."
In response to message #11
 
   Oh la la quelle bataille ici, pourquoi ?

Je n'interviens ni sur criticaldance, ni sur balletalert et très rarement ici, car je ne veux pas m'enregistrer. Je n'ai pas demandé aux gens de quitter ballet.co. C'est un site de valeur intéressant et drôle parfois.

J'ai constaté depuis que le forum en français est ouvert sur ce site concurrent que les postings en français ici ont disparu, et j'ai voulu dire à Serge qu'il trouverait sans doute des avis sur cet autre site.

L'avantage de ballet.co est de pouvoir mettre des postings sans s'enregistrer, c'est facile, c'est un peu anonyme, un peu lpache certes mais plus libre sans doute.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Brendan McCarthymoderator

28-08-01, 11:26 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail Brendan%20McCarthy Click to send private message to Brendan%20McCarthy Click to add this user to your buddy list  
13. "RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie."
In response to message #12
 
   Valerie - It would be honourable of you to disclose your identity and not to shelter behind anonymity. Serge, just as any of us can, is well capable of navigating the internet for himself.

If you had mentioned the other site in the context of a substantive argument, I don't see how any of us could object. But you content yourself with an ill-disguised piece of public relations. It really makes me wonder about who exactly you are, and what your motives are.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Tim Powell

28-08-01, 11:54 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail Tim%20Powell Click to send private message to Tim%20Powell Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
15. "RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie."
In response to message #13
 
   When I was very young I was told that if you could find nothing good to say about somebody say nothing about them which is why I have nothing to say about Venus/Valerie.It is advice which they or she would do well to follow.
There are some excellent postings in support of Bruce and ballet.co they come from highly respected members of the ballet.co family and I am delighted to align myself with them. Of the many points raised I would,in particular, echo Brendan when he talks of the humanity of the site.
It is extremely impertinent to make such points and the more so when one considers the sheer time and effort to maintain the quite splendid site which we get gratis. Bruce moderates with skill,patience and tact which is why the end product is so good and so special.
Thank you Bruce and keep up the good work.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Catherine

28-08-01, 12:17 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Catherine Click to send private message to Catherine Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
16. "RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie."
In response to message #13
 
   Comme l'a dit Joanne, modératrice sur Criticaldance, nous ne savons pas qui est Valérie. Tout simplement veut-elle peut-être faire de la publicité pour un site entièrement en français étant donné que depuis que j'officie sur criticaldance en tant que modératrice, la plupart des postings français ont disparu effectivement, comme le souligne fort justement Valérie.

Ballet.co est un site fantastique où j'ai fait mes premières armes et posté mes premières impressions, j'ai rencontré des gens passionnants et passionnés.

Criticaldance est une autre aventure pour moi et en français (ce qui m'évite de faire des contresens flagrants et parfois mal interprétés) pour tout ceux qui comme moi parle mal anglais.

Ceci étant, il faut aussi voir que mis à part des postings sur Guillem ou sur des annonces de dates, des postings purement franco-français n'intéressaient que les amateurs français de danse et personne d'autre ne participait au débat sur l'école de danse, les danseurs du corps de ballet, le concours annuel, etc, sujets très pointus, comme très peu de français participent aux sujets typiquement anglais. Ce qui est tout aussi logique, vous ne connaissez pas bien, Marie-Agnès Gillot en Angleterre, nous ne connaissons pas bien, Adam Cooper en France, par exemple. Et il est arrivé également que les danseurs et les ballets français se soient fait descendre sur ce site par les balletomanes anglais.

Beaucoup de personnes ici interviennent anonymement, même avec leur vrai prénom, ils ne mettent pas leurs mails et souvent lorsqu'il donne leur mails cela n'éclaire pas plus l'identité de la personne. Vénus attaque sur le fond ballet.co, Valérie ne fait qu'indiquer un lieu sur la danse où le débat est en FRANCAIS et avec sans doute à l'heure actuelle plus de lecteurs.

Pour clore le débat, je pense qu'il y a effectivement de la place pour tout le monde, et nous devons prospérer chacun dans notre coin.

Désolée de ne pas mettre ce posting en anglais, mais je ne veux pas risquer de faire de contre-sens et d'être mal interprété. Alors longue vie à ballet.co et à... criticaldance aussi


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Anneliese Handley

28-08-01, 12:51 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Anneliese%20Handley Click to send private message to Anneliese%20Handley Click to add this user to your buddy list  
17. "RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie."
In response to message #16
 
   Catherine,
Je vous remercie pour vos calmes mots sur ce sujet. Mon francais est un peu faible mais j'ai pu (? je ne me rappelle pas le passe compose de pouvoir!) comprendre vos intentions, je pense. J'essaye lire souvent les postings en francais, mais quand on parle des danseurs francais je ne peux pas repondre! Le posting de Serge m'interesse - j'attends quelques autre postings sur le sujet, pas sur le sujet de ballet.co ou criticaldance!


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Catherine

28-08-01, 01:21 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Catherine Click to send private message to Catherine Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
18. "RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie."
In response to message #17
 
   J'ai pu est totalement bon

Quelques mots sur le sujet. Serge a totalement raison. En effet la politique domine tout en France depuis environ 20 ans, et l'arrivée de la gauche au pouvoir.
D'ailleurs plus les municipalités sont de gauche, moins de danse classique il y a. Les rares villes où subsistent de la danse classique sont Bordeaux (Alain Juppé), Marseille (Jean-Claude Gaudin), Toulouse (Philippe Douste-Blazy), il n'y a qu'à Nancy où le maire est de droite et où ce n'est plus que de la danse contemporaine, mais il faut bien une exception à la règle !

Il est dramatique de voir de jeunes compagnies comme le Junior Ballet ou Europa Danse ne faire que du néo-classique ou du contemporain. Quand on voit que les jeunes du CNSDMP apprennent pendant quatre ans de la danse classique, il y a une section contemporaine au conservatoire, qu'ils travaillent des variations du répertoire que bon nombre ont le niveau des danseurs de l'école de danse de l'Opéra, pas forcément le physique, mais les critères de sélection de l'Opéra ne sont pas les mêmes et qu'ils ne dansent rien de foncièrement classique, c'est à vous dégoutter de faire de la danse.

Par ailleurs il s'avère également que des cours de danse classique sont fermés faute d'elèves. On peut par contre constater recrudescence de cours de jazz, de modern dance, de hip hop, etc.
De plus la programmation télévisée, qui a donné souvent l'envie aux jeunes de pratiquer la danse classique est quasi-inexistante, en ce qui concerne cette discipline, si on n'a pas de chaines thématiques, ce sont des programmes de fin de soirée (vers 1h du matin). La danse n'est pas considéré comme un art noble et maintenant le classique est jetté aux oubliettes car le public est mal informé, il ne connait pas. Il ne connait que le tutu et les pointes et se dit automatiquement c'est ringard. Curieusement les films parlant de danse classique comme Billy Elliot ou Save the last dance marchent très bien en France, donneront-ils envie aux jeunes de danser ?

La programmation même de l'Opéra est dramatique cette saison, même si souvent ce sont des chefs d'oeuvre contemporains, ce n'est presque que de la danse contemporaine ou néo-classique. De plus alors que l'on aurait pu remonté Shéhérazade version ballet russe, excusez le trou, je ne trouve plus le nom du chorégraphe, on demande sa relecture à Blanca Li, comme les sept pêchés capitaux sont une chorégraphie de Laura Scozzi. Je sais que l'Opéra doit faire aussi du contemporain, mais il a la mission de respecter le répertoire. Et les danseurs sont tout aussi mécontents que les spectateurs, c'est cela qui est le pire.

Voila quelques mots


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Anneliese

28-08-01, 01:41 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Anneliese Click to send private message to Anneliese Click to add this user to your buddy list  
20. "RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie."
In response to message #18
 
   Merci bien! Je n'ai pas beaucoup de temps maintenant,ainsi quelques mots seulement. En Grande Bretagne il n'y a pas beaucoups des compagnies de danse classique - je ne connais pas des compagnies en Irlande ou Pays de Galle, par example. Danse contemporaine, oui, il y a des compagnies, mais je pense seulement a Londres. Ballet traditionel - Royal Ballet, Birmingham Royal Ballet, English National Ballet, Scottish Ballet, ah, c'est une compagnie du Pays de Galle mais je ne rappelle pas le nom, Northern Ballet Theatre - et la derniere n'est pas une compagnie traditionelle, elle ne mont pas "Lac" de Petipa et Ivanov. Je ne pense pas qu'il est une chose de politique mais de sociologie, le vingt-unieme siecle. Mais en France, ou les choses de l'anime(?), les choses intellectuelle (?) et artistique sont traditionellement tres tres important a tous les gens, c'est triste.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Catherine

28-08-01, 01:51 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Catherine Click to send private message to Catherine Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
21. "RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie."
In response to message #20
 
   Oui mais rien qu'à Londres, vous avez déjà plusieurs compagnies classiques, nous nous avons en tout en France, l'Opéra de Paris, le Ballet de Bordeaux, le Ballet de Toulouse et dans une moindre mesure Marseille.

Toutes les autres villes ne font que du contemporain ou du néo-classique, tous les Centres Régionaux Nationaux ont été donnés aux chorégraphes contemporains comme Gallotta à Grenoble, Brumachon à Nantes, Delente à Roubaix, Malandain à Biarritz, etc.

Peut-être que le tutu pointes est démodé, mais le plus grand succès public de la saison aura été la re-création de paquita. Ce qui est quand même curieux.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Shirley

28-08-01, 11:39 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail Shirley Click to send private message to Shirley Click to add this user to your buddy list  
14. "RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie."
In response to message #12
 
   Can only say that my french is that bad I do not understand any of the posts in that language but I do find it unbelievable that Venus would post such a derogatory remark about ballet.co. I can only say that others have answered her very well and leave it at that.

We have a freedom at Ballet.co that other sites do not allow us (how else would Venus been able to post anon) and I enjoy that just as I enjoy the atmosphere generated here by Bruce and all the other regulars!


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Marie

28-08-01, 04:14 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Marie Click to send private message to Marie Click to add this user to your buddy list  
22. "RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie."
In response to message #14
 
   I like ballet.co for its humor , good-looking , artistic presentation and open-mindness.It would be boring if it were too serious!


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Catherine

28-08-01, 04:55 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Catherine Click to send private message to Catherine Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
23. "RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie."
In response to message #22
 
   LAST EDITED ON 28-08-01 AT 05:31 PM (GMT)


Marie, je ne suis pas d'accord du tout avec vous, ce n'est pas parce qu'un site internet est sérieux qu'il est ennuyeux, on peut y apprendre plein de choses. Tous les sites ont leur intérêt et ce n'est pas parce qu'on engendre des polémiques que cela est mieux. Le ton de ballet.co est amical, mais parfois les posters profitent de l'anonymat pour aller trop loin.

Tous les postings ne sont pas forcément les bienvenus sur aucun forum surtout quand ils attaquent la religion, le physique ou que sais-je encore. Ce n'est absolument pas drôle et cela ne fait rire personne à part peut-être celui qui déclenche les hostilités.

Marie, I'm not at all agree with you, it's not because a website is serious that it's boring. We can learn many things. Ballet.co tone is friendly but sometimes some poster use too of anonymous way to go too far.
All posting are not welcome on any forum especially when religion, physical or other things like that are object of topic.
It's absolutely not funny and make laugh nobody, except, topic starter.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Marie

28-08-01, 07:31 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Marie Click to send private message to Marie Click to add this user to your buddy list  
24. "RE: Danse classique:politique et idéologie."
In response to message #23
 
   You've misunderstood.I meant "funny" in the sense of the general atmosphere of the site , like dame Blandine and contributors like Eugene and Jim , etc...


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Bruce Madmin

29-08-01, 01:34 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Bruce%20M Click to send private message to Bruce%20M Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
26. "Valerie and Venus Update"
In response to message #24
 
   Thank you to everybody for the messages of support both here and privately - very much appreciated. (if that doesn't sound too 50's of course!)

Advertising Postings and the French Threads
I need to perhaps recap on our position on advertising postings pages - those are posting which those associated with other sites might want to do and we say no. This is a policy in common with Ballet Alert and many other websites and which most of the media have as established practice. When was the last time you opened a newspaper and found lots of messages suggesting you need to go and read the Sun, the Times, the Mail, Evening Standard etc etc?

What we don't want to encourage is a world in which webmasters and there friends pounce veraciously on new posts wherever they may be and just advertise. As Brendan pointed out people know how to navigate the web and find other sites and many visit multiple sites anyway. We are also happy for our regular contributors, not associated with other sites, to point out nuggets elsewhere too.

The position on the French threads has been more interesting and rather worrying though. A recent French posting on this board was lifted (taken) in its entirety and put on CritcalDance for their discussion. We were not consulted, we were not identified as the board the posting came from and the poster was not consulted either. It was actually an anonymous post but that doesn't mean that people can just assume a poster would be happy to see this happen.

Then we find somebody called Valerie turning up and subsequent French posts are immediately responded to with a pointer to CricticalDance. So we have a situation developing where our posts are taken and people are advised to go elsewhere. They are individually outrageous and unprofessional but together an appalling abuse of our hospitality. Left unchecked Valerie would go on and 'Tom' might well start to join in, advising RB posters of a great site elsewhere which recently covered this or that etc etc. This is why we have professional rules and our position is widely known and that includes CritcalDance.

Identification of Valerie and Venus
It was good to see reassurance from Joanne, a Critical Dance moderator, that neither her or her colleagues knew who Valerie and Venus are. Regrettably the balance of evidence indicates otherwise and CritcialDance, at one level or another, appear to be deceiving us.

Valerie it turns out has the same electronic 'signature' as Catherine. As does Etienne who put in a couple of brief appearances earlier and whose only contribution each time was to post a link saying CritcialDance was the place for discussions in French.

I say this based on an analysis of the server log files for the last 3-4 weeks. For the more technical I'm not just talking about IP address matching but also machine hardware/software signatures which makes it even more specific. When yesterday Catherine used a different way to visit our site so did Valerie. I'm happy for our log files to be made available for independent audit.

The evidence then says that a CriticalDance moderator used false names to post on our site and deliberately in ways they know they shouldn't.

We of course know the electronic identity of Venus but cannot match that with any other poster at the moment. They appear to be UK resident and many readers have volunteered suggestions - amazingly all the same person too! But speculation alone does not move us forward.

Way Forward?
As I say we welcomed CricticaDance's taking the issue of Valerie and Venus (nominally) seriously and making some human and base level registration checks. The evidence indicates that the reassurance that Valerie's is not known is bogus and given that we can't help but feel there may be deception within part of the team about Venus also.

The easiest way for CritcialDance to offer reassurance is for their server log files to be made available for independent audit and to see if the electronic identity we have for Venus matches one of the CriticalDance helpers.

We have no wish to draw this out but such a way forward would close the issue down and CritcalDance, having volunteered reassurance, would be seen to do all it sensibly can to convince our readerships that at least Venus is not of their flock.

For the future we just wish to have our hospitality respected and to be allowed to operate as we feel appropriate. We don't impose on other sites and they should not on us.


Finally there is also something to be said about our style and approach to covering dance and ballet. But I'll talk about that on a separate occasion


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Anneliese

29-08-01, 02:09 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Anneliese Click to send private message to Anneliese Click to add this user to your buddy list  
27. "RE: Valerie and Venus Update"
In response to message #26
 
   Bruce, sorry if I was dismissive in an earlier post - I now understand the ramifications of the whole situation a bit better. Congratulations on your calm professionalism.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Ann Williams

29-08-01, 04:09 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Ann%20Williams Click to send private message to Ann%20Williams Click to add this user to your buddy list  
29. "RE: Valerie and Venus Update"
In response to message #27
 
   I would like to add my support for Ballet Co, and my personal admiration for Bruce's courtesy and forbearance in the face of this deliberate provocation.

What has been particularly hard to take is the undoubted free publicity it has provided for a certain other site (I refuse to name it, although I counted four separate name-checks in one of Catherine's postings yesterday).

In fact, one has to wonder cynically if this whole affair has been anything more than an extented publicity stunt for this other site.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Catherine

29-08-01, 05:12 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Catherine Click to send private message to Catherine Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
31. "RE: Valerie and Venus Update"
In response to message #29
 
   LAST EDITED ON 29-08-01 AT 05:41 PM (GMT)

Excusez ce posting en français, mais mon anglais est trop mauvais dans un cas aussi important.

Oui je suis Valerie, oui j'ai fait de la publicité pour Critical dance, et j'ai peut-être eu tort mais je n'ai jamais, je dis bien jamais incité les habitués anglais à quitter ballet.co pour Critical dance, je ne m'adressais qu'à des lecteurs français qui écrivaient en français en leur signalant qu'un site était complètement en FRANCAIS et en leur demandant de le consulter.

Ce site sans mon arrivée était complètement en anglais. Je crois que c'est parce que j'ai vu que nous n'étions que des français à nous répondre en anglais, que j'ai dit pourquoi ne pas parler en français. A mon départ, l'ensemble du lectorat français est d'ailleurs parti sur ce site concurrent.

Les deux sites sont radicalement différents, je pensais pouvoir faire de la publicite normalement, et Bruce n'aurait pas censuré le lien que j'avais mis une fois sous ma véritable identité, je n'aurais pas utilisé de pseudonymes.

Autre chose, si j'ai posté quatre fois hier, c'est que j'ai eu des choses à dire à chaque fois, je suis libre de poster ce que je veux sous mon nom et autant de fois que je veux. Je n'ai pas de contrat d'exclusivité pour tel ou tel site, même si naturellement je poste moins ici maintenant que je suis modératrice sur Critical Dance.
Et ce que j'ai posté sur ballet.co et sur le fait que je lui devais beaucoup était vrai et l'est toujours

Hier et aujourd'hui j'ai répondu à Anneliese, à Serge, aujourd'hui à Stéphane, à Isabelle et sans aucune intention publicitaire, uniquement en tant que balletomane passionnée, car de toute façon il y a une chose que vous pouvez reconnaitre c'est que je suis passionnée par la danse.

Mes propos sont calmes et pondérés et jamais oh grand jamais je n'ai demandé aux gens de quitter ce site pour un autre. Je ne sais sincèrement pas qui est Venus et n'en ai aucune idée et jamais je n'aurai fait ce qu'elle a fait ou dit ce qu'elle a dit car mes propos d'hier sur le ton de ballet.co sont sincèrement ce que je pense, au risque de me répéter.

Je suis toujours intervenue très souvent, ce qui m'a valu de nombreux mails anonymes mais à l'époque personne n'a cherché les IP pour me défendre contre ces attaques lâches. Pourtant ce n'est pas faute de demander.

Un autre point ne pensez-vous pas que de nombreuses personnes utilisent plusieurs pseudonymes pour poster sur ballet.co, c'est le cas chez nous donc, cela doit l'être ici aussi et je suis sûre que nombre de postings anonyme ne viennent pas de personnes qui viennent ponctuellement sur ce site, mais de personnes qui interviennent régulièrement et veulent poser des questions ou veulent faire des remarques généralement agressives pour ne pas démasquer leur nom réel. Ne croyez vous pas que Higgins, Venus, LD, etc ne sont pas les pseudos d'autres balletomanes habitués des lieux.

Le fait d'utiliser un pseudonyme, pour faire de la publicité, serait grave et là vous cherchez les adresses IP, mais faire des commentaires assassins sur la religion ou sur le physique des danseurs ne nécessitent pas cette recherche, permettez-moi d'en douter ?

Mon départ de ballet.co vous a certainement attristé Bruce, car l'auditoire français m'a suivie, mais jamais vous ne m'avez proposé ce que je fais sur Critical dance, qui je le répète une fois encore est radicalement différent de ballet.co
Pourquoi vouloir les opposer alors qu'ils sont si différents ?

J'ai avoué ma faute et comme on dit en français, faute avouée est à moitié pardonnée


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Maxime

29-08-01, 08:28 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Maxime Click to send private message to Maxime Click to add this user to your buddy list  
34. "RE: Valerie and Venus Update"
In response to message #31
 
   J'ai pris au fil des mois beaucoup de plaisir à lire les postings de Catherine et j'avais beaucoup de respect pour sa passion mais je trouve cette histoire vraiment décevante et déplorable.

Passe encore le premier message qui est un pur message publicitaire... MAIS LE DEUXIEME .... Celui qui commence par "Oh là là qu'est-ce qui se passe ici..." Ce message est tellement puéril ! Il est tout de même incroyable qu'une personne qui est modérateur sur un site se permette d'envoyer un tel message.

Je sais que si je dirigeais Critical dance je prendrais tout bonnement la décision radicale de me passer des services de cette personne.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Catherine

29-08-01, 09:27 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Catherine Click to send private message to Catherine Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
35. "RE: Valerie and Venus Update"
In response to message #31
 
   Je voulais dire que ni Joanne, ni aucun des modérateurs du site n'étaient au courant de mon pseudonyme Valérie et de ce que j'ai fait. J'ai effectivement menti en disant que je ne connaissais pas Valérie que ce soit à mes collègues ou sur le site.

Je le regrette sincèrement que ce soit aux yeux de mes collègues ou aux votres.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Bruce Madmin

29-08-01, 09:46 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Bruce%20M Click to send private message to Bruce%20M Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
36. "RE: Valerie and Venus Update"
In response to message #31
 
   It’s quite simple Catherine - you and others are welcome to post here if you respect the way we choose to operate. If you don't then don't post here.

Your site is no different to any other in terms of advertising and if people want to post here in French (or Spanish or whatever) and not be advertised at then that is a decision for them and an attraction of this site. It’s not for you to think you know better - you have your own site for that.

I’m sad that you don’t appear to see that as somebody who helps run a website you have to conduct yourself professionally and help set an example. It’s about not deceiving 'us', or condoning such deception. It's about appreciating the hospitality one is extended when one goes elwhere even if things are differnt to the way you would like. It’s also not about telling lies to your fellow moderators when asked a straight question and thus bringing your site into some disrepute.

Much is being made of tracking down certain poster like Higgins and you, and others, presume to know whom I might track and who not. For obvious reasons I say little about what I do in this respect and what I am able to find out. I will say however that I have two investigations ongoing - totally unrelated to this matter - and they may or may not bare fruit.

Also when you were last attacked I very publicly defended you, as I have others. I also note that Higgins was stopped by sheer power of argument. For myself I have a number of people make points against me and I don't automatically resort to looking at the logs at such times. I accept there will some who disagree with me and that’s life. I do however take a dim view of people who persistently abuse our hospitality.

I don't actually believe lots of people use pseudonyms on Ballet.co. We prefer that people post under their real name and include an email address. We accept that some don't but 99.5% of postings are reasonable contributions and not a cause of concern. None of this is justification for abusing our hospitality.

If you don't like the way we operate don't post. If you decide to post on, and I hope you do, then please do so in the spirit of our site - it might be different to your rules but variety is all on the net.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
robert

29-08-01, 04:14 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail robert Click to send private message to robert Click to add this user to your buddy list  
30. "RE: Valerie and Venus Update"
In response to message #26
 
   Let's try and forget Valerie and Venus, they do not make much of a contribution to balletco.

I do not think many people have read Serge’s original posting. If I am right he suggests the only hope for ballet in France is the return of the monarchy! I would imagine that this view would suggest he is middle or upper class and possibly elderly. Not since the assassination of Admiral Darlan, by French Royalists, for co-operation with the Nazis and possibly the Americans during the war has anyone been so bold.
Is Serge right and does it apply here? It looks, as though Scottish Ballet is suffering the fate the French fear for ballet in France (the Scots have even been able to deport the director!) At times the left has been very anti classical ballet for obvious reasons. It did survive the French revolution and also surprisingly the Russian revolution, but it was a close run thing. With the rise of the new national socialist type governments who are very anti elitist Classical Ballet may be in for a bad time!
Sorry I could not write this in French, I am not middle class enough. I have tried to see the POB twice but they or the railways were on strike both times.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Brendan McCarthymoderator

29-08-01, 05:26 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Brendan%20McCarthy Click to send private message to Brendan%20McCarthy Click to add this user to your buddy list  
32. "RE: Valerie and Venus Update"
In response to message #30
 
   I'm afraid I agree with Ann. This is a depressingly shabby business. People's ethical sense should not desert them the moment they go on-line. We owe each other some basic decencies on the internet, just as we do in real life.

The arrogance is also astonishing. The postings mentioned by Bruce, when taken together, amount to 'language policing' pure and simple. They are a bullying attempt to prescribe that French speakers shall post on one site only - and not elsewhere.

I cannot believe that criticaldance will find such behaviour acceptable. It undermines them and places them at real risk of becoming a pariah site. If Joanne and her colleagues are serious about "supporting dance", they have some hard decisions to make - and very quickly.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Pierre

29-08-01, 06:35 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Pierre Click to send private message to Pierre Click to add this user to your buddy list  
33. "RE: Valerie and Venus Update"
In response to message #32
 
   Shame on you Bruce,

Je trouve stupéfiant que vous cherchiez qui est Valérie qui se contente de faire de la publicité pour un site français de danse qui intéresse ESSENTIELLEMENT les Français et qui est RADICALEMENT diférent de celui ci.

Je trouve scandaleux et honteux que vous devoiliez son identité mais c'est sans doute "so typically british". et que vous ne vous attachiez pas à révéler quels sont les autres nombreux posteurs anonymes notamment ceux qui témoignent de RACISME et d'ANTISEMITISME.

Et si Catherine et Valérie sont identiques, ce n'est pas la seule que ce soit en France ou à en Grande-Bretagne, à employer plusieurs pseudos, vous devez bien le savoir.

Mais comme on dit en France "qui se sent morveux se mouche", c'est sans doute que vous perdez des lecteurs BRITANNIQUES pour oser attaquer à ce point, sinon que craignez vous, votre site est tellement différent de l'autre, "celui-dont-on-ne-doit-pas prononcer-le-nom."



  Printer-friendly page | Top
Kevin

29-08-01, 10:19 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Kevin Click to send private message to Kevin Click to add this user to your buddy list  
38. "RE: Valerie and Venus Update"
In response to message #33
 
   i appologise now for my inabillity to speak French.i remember at school being hit across the face with a French text book , by my french tutor.( point made???).
However I am curious to know...........is there a French site that offers what ballet ,co.uk offers???????????????????
And if so..........is it a slap in the face ???????
Valerie/ Venus ( whoever) were obviousley drawn to Ballet .co by its freedom of speech. Shame they can't voice that opinion across the waters that divide us (sadly they have)......(Just read that they are the same and uk based)
Keep it open ,keep it flowing and enjoy the heated discussion.
At least it shows that people care.
When we stop talking ..............etc
Ballet .co.uk & Bruce bring information and insight & dialogue that people are wanting of.
Sorry if we don't all speak French.
But let us not forget that the language of dance is international
and it means a lot to(us) critics who care.
Keep it alive !!!!!!!!!keep it real!!!!!!!!!!!!Keep it in perspective!!!!!!!!!!Its only ballet after all.
Your choice
God bless <Ballet.co.uk> Thank you Bruce.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Alex

29-08-01, 10:27 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Alex Click to send private message to Alex Click to add this user to your buddy list  
39. "RE: Valerie and Venus Update"
In response to message #38
 
   Comme l'a dit Joanne, modératrice sur Criticaldance, nous ne savons pas qui est Valérie. Tout simplement veut-elle peut-être faire de la publicité pour un site entièrement en français étant donné que depuis que j'officie sur criticaldance en tant que modératrice, la plupart des postings français ont disparu effectivement, comme le souligne fort justement Valérie.

Voici un extrait du message de Catherine/Valérie datant d'hier...

SANS COMMENTAIRES


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Alex

29-08-01, 10:46 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Alex Click to send private message to Alex Click to add this user to your buddy list  
40. "RE: Valerie and Venus Update"
In response to message #39
 
   J'oubliais, au point ou l'on en est, peut-être même que Catherine et Serge ne font qu'une seule et même personne !


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Alex

29-08-01, 10:50 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Alex Click to send private message to Alex Click to add this user to your buddy list  
41. "RE: Valerie and Venus Update"
In response to message #40
 
   Le ton de ballet.co est amical, mais parfois les posters
profitent de l'anonymat pour aller trop loin.

Extrait du deuxième message de Catherine / Valérie datant d'hier.


Je crois Catherine que personne ne vous contredira sur ce point là.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Terry Amos

29-08-01, 10:52 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Terry%20Amos Click to send private message to Terry%20Amos Click to add this user to your buddy list  
42. "RE: Valerie and Venus Update"
In response to message #39
 
   Am I the only one who thinks that all postings on this site should be in English? Personally, I refuse to read anything in minor languages such as Gaelic or French.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Brendan

29-08-01, 11:02 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Brendan Click to send private message to Brendan Click to add this user to your buddy list  
43. "RE: Valerie and Venus Update"
In response to message #42
 
   Terry - I can't believe you're serious especially as French is, so to speak, the first language of ballet. French postings must have an honoured place here. I should also say that Irish is my first language. If you provoke me sufficiently, I just may start using it on ballet.co.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Shirley

30-08-01, 00:45 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail Shirley Click to send private message to Shirley Click to add this user to your buddy list  
44. "RE: Valerie and Venus Update"
In response to message #43
 
   Any chance of a translation for us non French Speakers?


  Printer-friendly page | Top
sylvia

30-08-01, 08:44 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail sylvia Click to send private message to sylvia Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
56. "RE: Valerie and Venus Update"
In response to message #44
 
   Shirley, http://babelfish.altavista.com/translate.dyn is always an option as it translates text. Not always 100% accurate though - some of the meanings do get lost.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Pete

30-08-01, 02:51 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail Pete Click to send private message to Pete Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
45. "RE: Valerie and Venus Update"
In response to message #42
 
   To say that French is a 'minor language', especially where ballet is concerned is ignorant. To say that all postings should be in English is insular.

One of Ballet.Co's many assets is its ability to embrace a variety of dance cultures and also to provide a forum for the expression of opinions from a wide range of backgrounds. I love the way it appeals to the intellectual and to the regular joe like me, and more importantly, that its censorship (and I use that term very loosely) is based very much on the opinions of posters rather than on the opinion of a committee of moderators as many other sites seem to be based.

Ballet.Co Rocks!

As for the Gaelic issue, as the Welsh would say (we're interbreeding everywhere you know!) Balet ydy'r iaith cyffredinol!


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Karen

30-08-01, 07:29 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail Karen Click to send private message to Karen Click to add this user to your buddy list  
46. "RE: Valerie and Venus Update"
In response to message #45
 
   There are so many issues here, I don't know where to start. Firstly, my feelings about the language issue: I have had a lot of fun with my dictionary the past couple of days, and my vocabulary is improving by leaps and bounds. I can READ French fairly well, but I would never have the temerity to post in it. (I guess I should here compliment the French posters who are brave enough to make occasional sorties into English - bravo!) I would, however, ask the French how they would feel if, on an essentially French site, people started writing in in English? How would people on Ballet.co feel if a bunch of Russians started a "conversation"? (A lot of people have studied French at school; rather fewer Russian - and not everyone would have the alphabet available for them on their computer.) Do we want Ballet.co to become a site filled with messages in assorted languages that the majority of the posters can't read? I think Bruce has been extremely tolerant.

The site Catherine and others have referred to has a section especially for postings in French. Those who want to read them can. Those who can't read French well or can't be bothered to take out their dictionaries are free to ignore that section. I can understand Catherine's desire to publicise that site to the French on this site. The problem is that the site in question has not behaved in a "gentlemanly" fashion towards either Ballet.co or towards another, American, site on more than one occasion. The site in question has freely poached links and other materials without giving appropriate credit. This amounts to plagarism and has, quite understandably, caused not a little friction. The posters may have made their point in all innocence, but Bruce is bound to react with this "history" in mind. It is for this reason that he resorted to uncovering who some of the anonymous posters were. On other, similar sites, posters MUST register with their real name and email address. However they are free to use any "nom de plume" they like - and to change it whenever they like - and to conceal their true identities from everyone EXCEPT the list owner and moderators. This has worked to keep things very "clean."

As for Pierre, I find it appalling that you accuse Bruce of promoting racisim and antisemitism when you clearly harbor a lot of anti-British sentiments. If anyone is a racist it is you. De Gaulle has been dead a long time. Ooooh - just had a thought - you're not French Canadian, are you? That would explain the anglophone hatred - or are you, perhaps, "Venus" in disguise as someone who writes excellently (and if so, my hat's off to you) in French???

As for the anonymous "Venus", I am one of the people who is fairly certain of "her" identity. "Venus", it is clear, has quite a grudge to bear against Ballet.co and/or Bruce personally. Otherwise the language used would not have been quite so vitriolic. It was obvious, by the spelling and the use of language, that the person is British. (I can call myself an "expert" in the differences between British and American English, because I, an American, lived for 13 years in London and am married to a Brit.) No American would ever refer to a "village fete", for example. There are other nuances about the language that leads me to suspect that "Venus" is a man. This is just a feeling, which tends to be confirmed by other factors. Critical Dance, essentially a West-coast American site, has only one Brit that is significantly involved in the "upper echelons" of the site (as opposed to mere posters). That person is known to have had some problems vis-a-vis this web site. Et voila! (Sorry, I can't get my computer to put in the accents.)

As for comments concerning the original purpose of this thread - we do seem to have gone far astray - I can understand the concerns about the apparent diminution of support for classical ballet by socialist and other left-of-centre political government groups. It is a problem not limited to France. I lived in London at the height of the reign of "Red Ken" and the GLC. All the arts grants seemed to have gone to ultra-modern efforts (no matter what art field). This seems to have the connotation of being more "egalitarian". classical music, dance, art was thought to be to elitist and "out of touch" with the masses. Good thing that didn't happen in Russia after the Revolution, or ballet really would be in a sorry state today. I also think that those sentiments are cyclical in nature and that in a couple of years the pendulum will swing the other way. The trick is to maintain the tradition, so there will be a generation of prepared dancers, companies and an educated core audience.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Emma Pegler

30-08-01, 08:03 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail Emma%20Pegler Click to send private message to Emma%20Pegler Click to add this user to your buddy list  
47. "RE: Valerie and Venus Update"
In response to message #46
 
   On behalf of Critical Dance, we would like to assure ballet.co's administrators and posters that the matters being discussed on this thread are being investigated. When we have had the opportunity to fully understand and investigate the matters under discussion, we will publish a statement on our findings and our proposed course of action. We are taking the allegations made by ballet.co very seriously . The objective of our site is to promote dance and we believe that dance is best served by a diversity of support and opinions. We have never asked our moderators or posters to be loyal to our site and not post on ballet.co, and we have never asked any of such persons to post under pseudonyms to publicise Critical Dance. We have never criticised ballet.co on our web site at any level and have no knowledge as to who "Venus" is or might be. We have been advised by one of our moderators that she used the pseudonym "Valerie" and we are currently considering how to deal with this situation in discussion with our moderating board. We will advise you shortly of our decisions. We ask for your patience and once again assure you that this matter is being taken seriously.

Signed Emma Pegler
Joanne Brack
Stuart Sweeney


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Richard J

30-08-01, 08:59 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail Richard%20J Click to send private message to Richard%20J Click to add this user to your buddy list  
48. "RE: Valerie and Venus Update"
In response to message #47
 
   Since I visit various sites concerned with the arts, I thought that I would glance at Criticaldance for the promised stimulating debate concerning classical dance in France. It was then that I started to notice some amazing coincidences, so I started to trawl back through various postings, noticing date and time.

05-08-01 ‘La chere Catherine’(sorry I can’t find grave accents on this keyboard) by a contributor called x tells us that Catherine is now a moderator for Criticaldance. Catherine dutifully replies. Who is x, we wonder?

11-08-01 At 5-42 pm, ‘un amoureux de la danse’ starts a new thread on Ballet.co, mourning the state of classical dance in France (“L’état de la danse classique en France”).

12-08-01 A busy day! At 10-34 am ‘Valérie’ adds her thoughts to the Ballet.co thread, followed by Catherine at 10-50 am. (Ballet.co times are GMT). However, attention has now been diverted across the Atlantic to Criticaldance, a site which works in Pacific Time, 8 hours behind GMT. At 02-41 PT (i.e. 10-41 GMT) Cathy has introduced a thread (“De l’avenir de la danse classique en France”) which starts with the piece by ‘un amoureux de la danse’ about the state of things in France. Cathy adds considerably to this introduction. She comments that she found the piece by ‘un amoureux de la danse’ on ‘un forum concurrent’ (a competitor forum). At 1-53 pm GMT Etienne pops up on Ballet.co and effectively says “read all about it on Criticaldance”. In case we have missed that, Etienne gives the web address for Criticaldance again at 8-05 pm.! Catherine appears again on Ballet.co at 8-24 pm.

13-08-01 The last message on this Ballet.co thread is from the ever-helpful Bruce, who provides a translation of the original piece by ‘un amoureuex de la danse’; (he’s right – such matters are of international significance).

Meanwhile, the thread on Criticaldance continues to develop. It’s interesting stuff, though much of it is written by Catherine. By 19-08-01 there are 20 posts, half of them written by Catherine (generally at some length). There is then a blank; nothing else is written until 25-08-01.

25-08-01 At 10-06 am Serge appears and starts a new thread on Ballet.co, telling us his thoughts about “La danse classique” in France. At 10-22, Valérie (aka Catherine as we now know) appears on the Ballet.co thread to suggest that we read all about it on Criticaldance. Shortly after, at 10-40 GMT (i.e. 02-40 PT) Catherine (or Cathy as she is over there) writes again for her existing thread on Criticaldance, telling us that Serge has commented on these things “sur un forum concurrent mais néanmoins ami”; i.e “on a competitor forum which is nevertheless a friend”…

That, to date, is the end of the thread on Criticaldance. As for sorting out the sequence of events, I’m sure L’Inspecteur Maigret would have found it fascinating....I've listed the events so that it can be seen what Bruce was dealing with.

Catherine obviously has much to say concerning issues which she feels passionately about, but it is sad that she has managed to allow her message be submerged in other issues.

I have no problem with people contributing to similar debates on different sites, provided it is all genuine, and that the integrity of the different sites is respected. I have myself contributed to Ballet.co, Criticaldance, and Balletalert. However, if contributors wish to use pseudonyms, this facility must not be abused. Bruce is incredibly generous in allowing the range of discussion he does without registration but with the possible use of pseudonyms. It must be a nightmare to moderate, and we should be grateful. Criticaldance and Balletalert both require registration. When I registered successfully on Balletalert recently I found that even then I couldn’t post immediately; permission for this came later.

Issues in the arts inevitably might concern specifically one particular country, or area of a country; I enjoy the bilingual threads, but not everybody will. However, solutions to problems are not found by being parochial, which is why there must be a place for different sites and, above all, trust.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Bruce Madmin

30-08-01, 10:45 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail Bruce%20M Click to send private message to Bruce%20M Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
49. "Moving towards wrapping up this thread"
In response to message #48
 
   This thread has grown tremendously over the last two or 3 days and is well beyond the length we'd normally have.

I'm reluctant to start a continuation thread because, like many, I see much time is now being lost to other good and more positive things. Excellent and telling points are being made still, but we need to move towards closing this down as tidily as we might.

Critical Dance have promised some further statement and I will leave this thread open for that and a few response comments that may arise. But unless you really feel incredibly strongly I'd urge us to concentrate on others threads for now.

Finally I hope that Catherine continues to be a fundamental part of covering dance in French. She has done much in the past to make things happen and I suspect learned a great deal from this episode. The issues are very serious but now mostly explored and nobody deserves to be outcast in this. (imho of course)


  Printer-friendly page | Top
pmeja

30-08-01, 11:08 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail pmeja Click to send private message to pmeja Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
50. "RE: Moving towards wrapping up this thread"
In response to message #49
 
   quite so, bruce. my one suggestion might be that if a thread is started in english, it seems unfair to me for someone to chime in in french and thereby potentially freeze out even the person who started it, who may not understand or be able to respond, and that there might need to be either a french forum, or for a thread that is started in english to stay that way and vice versa for french.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Pierre

30-08-01, 12:51 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Pierre Click to send private message to Pierre Click to add this user to your buddy list  
51. "RE: Moving towards wrapping up this thread"
In response to message #50
 
   En toute chose il faut raison garder, dit on en français, c'est exact donc remettons les choses à leur place et commençons à balayer devant sa porte comme on dit toujours en France

Il me semble que me traiter de xénophone et anti britannique est un bien grand mot car comme on peut le constater dans nombreux postings, nos "amis" anglais nous suggéraient qu'ils étaient gentils de nos accueillir sur leur site et que si nous n'étions pas contents nous n'avions qu'à rester chez nous, mais peut-être n'ai-je pas bien traduit.

Effectivement il est vrai que tout posting commencé dans une langue devrait être poursuivi dans cette langue. C'est peut-etre la raison pour laquelle Critical dance a pris tant d'essor en France, enfin un site où les gens pouvaient s'exprimer et où leurs propos étaient facilement compris sans contre-sens à la lecture ou à l'ecriture. D'ailleurs Bruce eut pu avoir l'idée lui-même.

Je n'accuse pas Bruce de racisme ou d'antisémitisme mais je regrette qu'il n'ait pas mis plus de hargne à rechercher qui était les Higgins ou Victoria et si cette personne n'était pas la même.

J'en conclus à me demander quel était l'intéret de Bruce à attaquer Catherine alias Valérie, effectivement elle a menti, mais dans quel intérêt, simplement un peu de publicité pour un autre site qui comme je le disais est radicalement différent et ne peut faire de concurrence à celui-ci, chacun étant spécifique.
En France, on peut lire deux journaux aussi diamétralement opposés que par exemple Le Figaro et l'Equipe... donc on peut sur le web lire ces deux sites sans que ce soit au détriment l'un de l'autre. Mais est-ce la raison pour laquelle Bruce s'attaque ainsi à Catherine, perdrait-il des lecteurs?

En France, de même on peut voir dans les journaux des publicités gracieuses pour d'autres journaux c'est ce qu'on appelle des échanges de publicité. Il me semble que Bruce aurait pu accepter de mettre Critical dance dans les links amis, sans que cela lui coûte rien, on peut faire des échanges et comme je l'ai dit les deux sites sont tellements différents, ils ont chacun leurs spécificités.

Il me semble beaucoup plus grave et même déontologiquement incorrect de dénoncer l'identité des gens sur le thread. C'est honteux ! Et je pense que si dommages il y avait, c'est Bruce qui devrait les payer.

Enfin, je pense que les propos de Venus sont beaucoup plus incorrects que ceux de Catherine car ils attaquent fondamentalement ce site.

Je serais Catherine, j'éviterais désormais de poster sur ce site où quand elle n'est pas là, les postings en et de français n'existent plus. En plus je remarque que lorsque Bruce a traduit en anglais le thread sur l'avenir de la danse classique en France, personne n'a répondu.

Enfin c'est complément absurde d'accuser Catherine d'être Serge, inconnu etc, etc...... Je ne vois pas son intérêt et en plus même si elle fait de la pub pour d'autre site elle me semble avoir toujours eu le courage de ses opinions et peut-être même un peu trop....
D'ailleurs Bruce, vu que vous pouvez savoir qui est qui, peut-être pourriez vous me conforter dans cette opinion.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
John W.

30-08-01, 01:24 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail John%20W. Click to send private message to John%20W. Click to add this user to your buddy list  
52. "RE: Moving towards wrapping up this thread"
In response to message #51
 
   Merci Catherine pour ce nouveau message


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Bruce Madmin

30-08-01, 01:52 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Bruce%20M Click to send private message to Bruce%20M Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
53. "RE: Moving towards wrapping up this thread"
In response to message #52
 
   >Merci Catherine pour ce nouveau message
>


After all that has been said I most sincerely hope this is not true.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Bruce Madmin

30-08-01, 04:33 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Bruce%20M Click to send private message to Bruce%20M Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
54. "RE: Moving towards wrapping up this thread"
In response to message #53
 
   Catherine assures me - very clearly - that she is not posting further under assumed names.

I'm sad that Pierre abuses our hospitality but won't reposed other than to note that I discussed the position re Higgins and our tracking of some problem posters in an earlier response - that appears not to have been read or understood.

Can I suggest we now just stop posting pending receiving CD's final reassuring thoughts on all this.

Thank you - lets go do other things.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Karen

30-08-01, 07:23 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Karen Click to send private message to Karen Click to add this user to your buddy list  
55. "RE: Valerie and Venus Update"
In response to message #48
 
   Bravo, Richard. Well researched, well written, well considered.

I see several problems here: 1) a particular individual who bears malace towards Bruce and Ballet.co deliberately setting out to cause dissention; 2) a policy (by Bruce) of allowing people to register using as many "noms de plumes" as they care to chose - thus allowing the possibility of manufacturing a debate entirely between the different identities of one individual. It is possible that Catherine is merely using the other identities to express opinions that she does not feel comfortable expressing "in her own skin", but that is the best face I can put on her use of so many different identities. I can name at least one other she has used that has not come up in this thread.

Communication on a board such as this can be fruitful ONLY if we can have a certain level of trust in each other. I,personally, have only either used my real name, Karen, on this list. I do use my email identity on another list, but on that list the moderator knows full well my real identity, and I have, on occasion, also appended my name to a post. Furthermore, my real name is available to anyone who cares to check out my profile. I know that there are people who for professional reasons cannot use their real names - especially if they wish to freely express opinions that may prove unpopular with people with whom they have to work/work under. I am here specifically thinking of dancers. On another site recently there was a discussion about problems within a ballet company. A poster, identified as "DancerX" was freely able to express thoughts about what was going on in a company of which, clearly he/she was a member. There was some prodding for the poster to reveal his/her identity, but clearly this was something that person could not do without jeopardising his/her job. However, very few of us have that excuse.

In addition to those problems, this discussion has brought forth some friction between those who want the freedom to post in whatever language moves them and those who want to have posts be primarily, if not entirely, in English. The problem with postings in languages other than English is that it excludes all those not versed in that particular language. Now it happens that many British do study French as a second language and many have probably enjoyed the challenge of "brushing up" their French by picking up their dictionary and working their way through the French postings. But if people can freely post here in French, what happens if someone wishes to post in, say, Danish? I would say that very few people outside of Denmark are fluent Danish readers, let alone speakers. OK - all the Norwegians and Swedes will probably be able to read and participate in the posts as well, but this group will be a very small minority. Now this has yet to happen, but that is not to say that it can't. Brendan, I believe it was, has "threatened" (please note the quotation marks) to write all his posts in Irish. This is fine - if he'd also like to provide a translation, as otherwise he'd probably be posting to himself. I would suggest a foreign language section (NOT just a French section) on this board. If someone reading a foreign language thread thought that the topic was of interest to the anglophone community, they could post the leading message with a translation, and the anglophones could then have a parallel discussion. Those of us who would care to try our hand at French, German, Italian, etc. would be free to do so.

As for "promoting" other sites here. There HAS been a particular problem with Critical Dance that is common not only to Ballet.co but to the other major dance board as well. If your neighbour has been stealing apples from your tree and then wants to sell you an apple pie, you are not likely to receive the sale offer with very good grace. Now the sale offer might be made by the neighbour's child who had no knowledge of where the apples came from, but it isn't likely to improve your mood much. You'd probably slam the door in the child's face. Just so, Catherine may have mentioned Critical Dance in all innocence: she is a moderator there, she knows that there are discussions there that francophones might enjoy. Unfortunately, there has been some friction between Critical Dance and Ballet.co of which she may have been all-to unaware. I am quite willing to give her the benefit of the doubt here. As for "Venus", I think that at least one of the signers of the letter from the directors at Critical Dance knows full well who that person is. I also suspect that person also knows who "Pierre" is. I await with bated breath the response that the Critical Dance Board have promised to make to Bruce.

In the meantime, I think we have all said quite enough. Perhaps we could restart the ORIGINAL topic of discussion, that of the effect of successive socialist governments in France on the state of ballet in that country. Perhaps, as I suggested in an earlier post, British readers would care to comment on how they perceive the various Labour Governments vs. the Tories vs. (to be local to London) the policies of Ken Livingstone affected the state of classical vs. contemporary dance in Britain.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
lara

30-08-01, 11:00 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail lara Click to send private message to lara Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
57. "Critical Dance bashing"
In response to message #55
 
   The biggest problems I have with all the discussions are the statements and general bashing of cricticaldance.com without any hard facts to back up the argument.

Damning by innuendo is not fact and it continues to stir up resentment where there possibly shouldn't be any.

Catherine has admitted her duplicity, period. Who Venus is is under investigation.

Karen, you said:

>I I can
>name at least one other
>she has used that has
>not come up in this
>thread.

I am a journlist and this sentence would have never been printed without substantiating information.

Nor would your statement:

>As for "promoting" other sites here.
> There HAS been a
>particular problem with Critical Dance
>that is common not only
>to Ballet.co but to the
>other major dance board as
>well.

Unless you can give examples, this sounds like pure malice to me and it serves no purpose except to stir up feelings of resentment against cricitcaldance.

>Unfortunately,
>there has been some friction
>between Critical Dance and Ballet.co
>of which she may have
>been all-to unaware.

As am I! I post regularly on that site and occasionally on balletalert and I have been totally unaware of any problems until just recently.

> As for
>"Venus", I think that at
>least one of the signers
>of the letter from the
>directors at Critical Dance knows
>full well who that person
>is. I also suspect
>that person also knows who
>"Pierre" is.

You "think" — you "supect" but you do not know for sure?!

What irresponsible, unsubstantiated hogwash.

Why on earth would you make such comments without backing them up. Again, they serve no CONSTRUCTIVE purpose at all.

If the administrators of ballet.co and criticaldance.com have problems, or misunderstandings of where information came from originally, then they should be the ones hashing it out and figuring out a way to co-exist peacefully to the benefit of all and for dance.

What purpose does it serve to air those problems publically?

With all this mess I do have a question regarding topics...it is verbotten then to say "I read such and such on site XXX and what do you all think of it?"

Or how about posting ones reviews in different places?

Maybe I am a Pollyanna, but I want everyone to just get along - enough nastiness. It is much too distressing.

lara


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Shirley

31-08-01, 00:19 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail Shirley Click to send private message to Shirley Click to add this user to your buddy list  
59. "RE: Critical Dance "
In response to message #57
 
   Bruce kept the thread open so Critical Dance could respond. He asked other to refrain from posting or commenting on it! Most people have respected that wish.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Pauline

30-08-01, 11:28 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Pauline Click to send private message to Pauline Click to add this user to your buddy list  
58. "RE: Valerie and Venus Update"
In response to message #55
 
   It is not my intention to coming back to the heart of the debate on this matter but I am quite surprised nobody seems to be shocked by the form adopted to solve this problem.

I completely agree that the whole thing is deplorable and that Catherine certainly didn't behave as she should have to as a moderator of another site.

But personally I wonder if it was not possible for Bruce to warn Catherine privately that her identity as Valérie was discovered, urging her to stop that kind of postings as an ultimatum before using more radical repression form ?

Was all this lynching really necessary ? As any other person, Catherine deserves the most basic respect one can expect from everyone, even if she did clearly a mistake that should be taken seriously . It is easy to "cast the first stone" but IMO, nothing could justify such a public humiliation.

At least Bruce's posting was duly based on objective evidences. But what to say about this flood of libellous postings accusing her to be the author of almost any other anonymous postings without a single objective element likely to support such accusation. All these remarks have no any other objective than hurt a person who already seems to have been dragged in the mud sufficiently.

Catherine is certainly guilty of having acted irresponsibily but don't you think that the other post is much more spiteful. But instead of Venus, you decided to throw Catherine's name to the lions;

Again, I'm not arguing to justify Catherine's behaviour but I feel quite disgusted by this kind of public accusation.

Yes I agree that we should stop discussing on that matter but why having waited 57 postings? The best thing was to close the thread.

Pauline Bellamy


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Robert

31-08-01, 01:20 AM (GMT)
Click to EMail Robert Click to send private message to Robert Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
60. "RE: Valerie and Venus Update"
In response to message #58
 
   I am lost! Who is the mysterious Higgins? Who is IMO? Do I know Catherine or Venus or Pierre? Are they male or female? Why didn’t I know about the dastardly criticaldance? Are the old and middle class going to be banned from ballet sites? Which French King does Serge favour for the Restoration? How will Babelfish translations cope with Welsh and Irish? Where is Adam Cooper, and why didn’t Darcy have the baby in her last Telegraph photocall? Why are some of the people who write in French being so rude and why on earth is anyone taking it so seriously? It’s not even ballet it's just talking about it.
PS. That makes 60 postings!


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Bruceadmin

01-09-01, 04:47 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Bruce Click to send private message to Bruce Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
62. "RE: Valerie and Venus Update"
In response to message #60
 
   LAST EDITED ON 01-09-01 AT 04:59 PM (GMT)

whoops deleted this by accident and now putting back in

I think it best to lock this thread for now. We continue to await the promised Critical Dance thoughts re this episode and ask they post on a new thread. We will probably however move that post to this thread for completness. Thank you


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Stuart Sweeney

01-09-01, 04:50 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Stuart%20Sweeney Click to send private message to Stuart%20Sweeney Click to add this user to your buddy list  
63. "RE: Valerie and Venus Update"
In response to message #62
 
   moved here from a separate thread - Ed

LAST EDITED ON 31-08-01 AT 01:21 PM (GMT)

Introduction

Several weeks ago Bruce requested, and I gave, an undertaking not to post here, which I have adhered to. In the current circumstances I feel it is appropriate that I, as the UK Director of criticaldance (referred to hereafter as the Site, to avoid repetition of the name which may be construed as marketing), should make this post and any subsequent ones on behalf of the site personally.

In this posting I address:
- The postings by Valerie
- The copy and pasting of a posting from ballet.co to criticaldance
- The posting by Venus


Regarding Valerie

- As a result of the research that Bruce carried out, Catherine, a Moderator on the Site, has admitted that she made these postings. This does not constitute an acceptable form of marketing in the view of the Site team.

- As the UK Director of the Site I apologise unequivocally to Bruce and the readers of ballet.co.uk for:
1. This unacceptable form of marketing
2. The time that Bruce has had to devote to researching and taking forward this incident.
3. The fact that we stated on August 28th that 'we do not know who Valerie ...'. As Catherine has explained, this statement, which was posted by Joanne on behalf of the Site, was made in good faith.

- We believe that ballet.co has the right to various reassurances:
1. Catherine has agreed not to post on ballet.co again in her own or any other name
2. Catherine will not conduct any similar marketing exercise on any other site
3. Catherine understands that any breach of these undertakings will mean that she will be permanently dismissed as a Moderator from the Site. It remains my view that despite this bad error of judgement, Catherine has much to offer in support of the dance world and that she deserves a second chance.
4. The remaining European Moderators of the Site will also not post on ballet.co in their own or any other names.
5. Point 2. will apply to all the Moderators on the Site with the penalty described in 3 and this will be made clear to them.

- We believe that ballet.co has a right to reparations for this incident. We propose:
. Catherine and criticaldance will pay £50 to a dance charity to be nominated by Bruce.
. In view of any marketing advantage that the Site may have gained from this incident, the Site will post a link to the ballet.co magazine each month for the next year. I would point out that the Site's search function shows that there are currently 53 threads with references to ballet.co.uk and the links proposed here will be in addition to those which will continue to be posted in the ordinary course of events.


Regarding the copy and pasting of a French language topic from ballet.co

- I have consulted with Catherine and she agrees that she did carry this out.
- The posting on the Site does mention that the post comes from another dance website (ballet.co is not named) and gives the pen-name of the original poster. Thus there was no attempt at deception. Nevertheless, this is not an action that should have been made without permission for courtesy and copyright reasons. As we cannot approach the original anonymous poster for approval, this copied text will be deleted from criticaldance and we apologise to Bruce, ballet.co and the anonymous poster.
- This copy and pasting episode runs contrary to standard practise on the Site:
. On several occasions we have deleted the full text of newspaper articles posted on the Site which have been copied and pasted by readers.
. I was recently invited by a dance fan to copy some of their ballet.co posts onto the Site. I responded that while I was happy for the individual to post their own text on the Site I was not happy to copy and post a complete posting from ballet.co for copyright reasons. I still have these e-mails. Clearly I would need the permission of the poster to release them.
- In short we take copyright very seriously as Bruce does. I assume that any newspaper articles copied in full onto ballet.co, such as this one, http://www.danze.co.uk/dcforum/happening/1880.html do have full copyright approval from the original publishers.


Regarding Venus

We see these comments as more damaging than those made by Valerie/Catherine. While we respect ballet.co's lack of censorship, it is not our approach. Questionable remarks on the Site are discussed regularly by our Moderators and changes or deletions are requested and sometimes imposed. Particular areas of concern are health issues and gross discourtesy to dancers and those involved in dance. If the comments of Venus had been made on criticaldance, they would have been reviewed by us and it may well have been decided that they breached our courtesy rule and would have been amended or deleted by the poster or by us.

For the record, I have spoken to Ralph Cox, Head Librarian at the Laban Centre (the largest contemporary dance school in Europe) who confirms the very positive conversation I had with him about the ballet.co databases and about which I posted here:

http://www.danze.co.uk/dcforum/Feedback/138.html.

Ralph is away on holiday for the next week, but has said that he is happy to send me an e-mail confirming this when he is back.

The regular links that are made from the Site to specific articles on ballet.co reflect the fact that we are happy to point our readers in the direction of ballet.co and that we believe that they will find things to interest them.

Unfortunately, I cannot shed any light on the identity of Venus; I wish I could. However, I am happy to share the relevant information that I do have. As I understand it, Bruce's research indicates that Venus is a UK poster. I have obtained written statements from the UK Moderators of the Site to the effect that they are not Venus. I have also contacted some other UK posters closely associated with the Site who have also given me assurances that they are not Venus. The Venus posting was made on Bank Holiday Monday, 27th August at 11.45pm. I returned from holiday on Sunday evening, having been out of e-mail and Internet contact for the week. I spent the whole of Monday catching up on site business and other e-mails. The only PC I used that day was my home machine, the Electronic Signature of which is well known to Bruce. I am not Venus and if a notarised statement to that effect is required then I will arrange for that.

Bruce mentions the work he has carried out, for which I am grateful, on the logs of ballet.co and suggests that we make our logs available to an independent auditor. This log facility is not switched on on the Site. I believe that like ballet.co an IP icon comes up on the posts when this facility is enabled and as can be seen on the Site, none of the posts on the Site have this icon. We have had only 1 or 2 instances from the 800+ registered posters on the Site where we have been unable to contact a poster. As a result it was never deemed necessary to enable this facility. However, my legal advisor tells me that under the Data Protection Legislation, even if we did have that information we could not pass it to a third party or make it public without the permission of all the individuals concerned, which would be self-defeating. To sum up our investigations have failed to identify Venus. I will not speculate as to who it might be.

There has been speculation and innuendo about the identity of Venus, which frankly is neither helpful nor professional. The culmination of the innuendo has been Thursday's postings from Karen. I have taken legal advice and am advised that Karen alleges that I am Venus and, by dint of undermining my reputation, is libellous. I am further advised that an apology from Karen and ballet.co would be in order.

A message to Venus - I urge you to apologise to Bruce and the ballet.co readers for your posting and to identify yourself to Bruce by private e-mail. In the event that it did emerge, contrary to our understanding, that Venus is a Director or Moderator of the Site or that the post was at the instigation of a Director or Moderator of the Site then disciplinary action would have to be taken.

In Summary

Catherine agrees that she has made a bad error of judgement and has apologised for the postings under the name of Valerie. As a Director of the Site I have also apologised on behalf of the Site for the Valerie posts, the Copy and Post of the ballet.co article and the time that Bruce has had to devote to his investigations. We have made various offers and proposals for action that Bruce can comment on in public or by private e-mail. I am pleased that through Bruce's research part of this mystery has been resolved.

My discussions with the UK Moderators and others involved with the Site lead me to believe that this group does not know the identity of Venus and shares a distaste for the discourteous tone of the posting in that name. I urge Venus to apologise and own up. I repeat that the use of innuendo is at least unprofessional and discourteous and, at worst libellous.

I am happy to meet with Bruce at any time, on our own or with a third party acceptable to both of us, to discuss any differences we may have.

As Joanne posted on Wednesday, 'From our side, ballet.co is a website that supports dance in a variety of ways and we hope it continues to prosper for many years to come.'



  Printer-friendly page | Top
Bruceadmin

01-09-01, 04:57 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Bruce Click to send private message to Bruce Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
64. "RE: Valerie and Venus Update - response"
In response to message #63
 
   Thank you for your statement, which we see as both conciliatory and constructive and we look to respond in a similar vein. With many words said we have no wish to draw this out in any way and ask all readers fully to respect that. I need to make an important apology and a few responses/comments in final wrap-up.

  • Ballet.co apologises most sincerely to Stuart Sweeney for the posting made by Karen on 30 August and fully accept his statement that he is not Venus and has no knowledge of who Venus might be. We have emailed Karen in the light of the new information/CD statement and hope that she will withdraw the remarks and apologise also. If for whatever reason this cannot be achieved within 24 hours from this posting we will edit Karen’s submission to remove such references.

  • At various points it is suggested that emails and/or signed letters can be supplied. Ballet.co very much appreciate these gestures but no further confirmations are necessary.

  • We think CD’s idea of the contribution to a charity quite excellent and would like the £50 to go towards putting on a piece at The Place. Of course £50 in no way values our time, put it is the spirit that counts and a charity that wins. In wrapping this up we feel that the reparations money should be given in both our sites names rather than just our own.

  • We definitely seek to take copyright seriously too. We have suffered from a number of people on the web taking material from our postings pages and the clarifying remarks from CD on their position at this time is much appreciated. For our part we will allow some materials to be used elsewhere automatically, without prior permission from us, providing suitable attribution is given always. We do however appreciate the need to be more specific on what we mean and will post some generic notes separately.

  • One is always worried when one’s competitors talk one up! We need to recognise that CD has its own aims and aspirations for the future and these will naturally colour the way it presents information about others. I don’t think any of us would expect a Chrysler marketing man to do particular or full justice to the GM range in a talk about cars!

  • I have but one substantial point – it’s about Log files where there appears to be a misunderstanding.

    By log files we mean the low level server log files, not those that may be maintained by UBB, the bulletin board software CD use. The server logs are a fundamental building block of the Internet and web servers and I know of no server space provider who would attempt to run without them. They are essential in tracking problems (technical as well as others) and in a commercial context they are the basis on which site wide (as apposed to just bulletin board) statistics are calculated.

    I have absolutely no wish to pursue this further at this time but it’s important that everyone should know that there are further options should libellous or scurrilous postings appear on either site in the future.

  • Should Venus contact us to apologise, as CD suggest and we applaud, I will make that known to all parties (the contact not the name!)

I’ll finish as I started by thanking CD for taking this very seriously. I hope this response is seen to be as similarly constructive. I trust this brings this horrendous episode to an end and that we can all get back to discussing the subject we are here for – ballet and dance. Once again I’m locking this thread – let that be it.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Bruceadmin

02-09-01, 12:34 PM (GMT)
Click to EMail Bruce Click to send private message to Bruce Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
65. "RE: Valerie and Venus Update - response"
In response to message #64
 
   We have established contact with Karen who is away from home at the moment but she has asked me, with due speed, to add a message to this thread withdrawing remarks made by her as to the possible identity of Venus. She, as Ballet.co has already, apologises to Stuart Sweeney and fully accepts his statement that he is not Venus and has no knowledge of who Venus might be.

Speaking personally I'm pleased to be able to make the posting of apology on Karen's behalf and truly believe that this concludes the entire episode. As before I hope that we can now all get back to discussing ballet and dance....


  Printer-friendly page | Top

Conferences | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic

 
Questions or problems regarding this bulletin board should be directed to Bruce Marriott