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Subject: "Lesbianism in Dance" Archived thread - Read only
 
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Conferences What's Happening Topic #1302
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Annabel

03-02-01, 11:15 AM (GMT)
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"Lesbianism in Dance"
 
   Its quite acceptable for a man to be gay and go join ballet....does anyone know how it would be for a lesbain to join a company? It does'nt seem to be at all talked about..i just think that its really biased that women's sexuality is not explored in dance that much...look at Paul Taylors work..his new latin inspired dance..the name excapes me..but anyhow he has more men that women...so in the show the men are partnered w/ eachother. In an interview he says 'yes thats part of life'..its nothing contrversial...but why did'nt he allow women to dance together? Im not trying to be politically correct...but as in all aspects of life...lesbainism is not mentioned...its as though only men can love one another....and if lesbainsim is mentioned...its usally to delight a straight man, or seen as a passing phase and extension of a girlish friendship


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: Lesbianism in Dance Nikki 03-02-01 1
  RE: Lesbianism in Dance Gerald Dowler 05-02-01 2
     RE: Lesbianism in Dance Eugene Merrett 05-02-01 3
         RE: Lesbianism in Dance Fuzzyface 06-02-01 4
         RE: Lesbianism in Dance Carly Gillies 06-02-01 5
  RE: Lesbianism in Dance robert 06-02-01 6
     RE: Lesbianism in Dance eugene 06-02-01 7
         RE: Lesbianism in Dance Caz 06-02-01 8
             RE: Lesbianism in Dance Eugene Merrett 07-02-01 9
                 RE: Lesbianism in Dance Caz 07-02-01 13
         RE: Lesbianism in Dance Carly 07-02-01 10
             RE: Lesbianism in Dance Fuzzyface 07-02-01 11
             RE: Lesbianism in Dance Eugene Merrett 07-02-01 12
                 RE: Lesbianism in Dance Nikki 07-02-01 14
                     RE: Lesbianism in Dance Isaac204 10-02-01 15

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Nikki

03-02-01, 11:27 AM (GMT)
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1. "RE: Lesbianism in Dance"
In response to message #0
 
   An unusal thread which i never really expected to find here! Annabel what inspired you to type this?

Well i must say that im gay myself and i dont agree w/ what your saying...there is nothing wrong about lesbianism not being mentioned...pple dont make a big fuss about homosexuality, whether pple like men or women. People dont make a big fuss cos its not an 'ISSUE'...its life and its normal.So i think your making an 'ISSUE' out of nothing.....


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Gerald Dowler

05-02-01, 05:30 PM (GMT)
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2. "RE: Lesbianism in Dance"
In response to message #0
 
   The point is interesting but the question concerning women dancing with each other is surely easily answered. Women have always been seen dancing together in ballet from the original Franz in Coppelia in Paris to all that corps work. For a female duet to have overt lesbian meaning, it would have to be very graphic, which then raises the question of issue-making, as pointed out by Nikki.
As for the place of a lesbian in a company, I would hazard a guess that the matter is of no importance, just as with gay male dancers. The important thing is their art, their job, if you like and their sexuality does not enter the equation. If onlt the rest of society were as advanced...


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Eugene Merrett

05-02-01, 06:26 PM (GMT)
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3. "RE: Lesbianism in Dance"
In response to message #2
 
   Nikki your statement comes as no surprise to me. You might have seen the hilariously funny Ally MacBeal program where a French style cafe is being sued for ony hiring gay staff. Their defense was that they needed to have staff who were more sophisticated and cultured then the cliental so they could be condescending in the best European tradition. Only gay people met this criteria (other then the French).

As funny as this is there is perhaps an element of truth. It is true that gay people are probably more cultured and sophitiscated then most people. Perhaps it is because people who have the courage to admit they are gay are less likely to succumb to peer pressure and being cool (ie they are more open minded and have the courage to follow their own conviction).

I would say that one sexually preferance is only one aspect of ones character. But I am more passionate about ballet then gay rights. I would prefer ballet to playdown homosexual conotations as much as possible until gays are more accepted in the mainstream.


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Fuzzyface

06-02-01, 09:18 AM (GMT)
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4. "RE: Lesbianism in Dance"
In response to message #3
 
   Annabel,
next time you watch "Les Biches", have a good look at the sweet little duet between two women known as "the grey girls". They are meant to be lesbians, and I recall that at the end of the dance they kiss (something that was mysteriously left out in the last revival at CG). I totally agree that dance should explore all aspects of sexuality, including lesbianism. Maybe lesbians in dance companies should get more "vocal".


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Carly Gillies

06-02-01, 01:18 PM (GMT)
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5. "RE: Lesbianism in Dance"
In response to message #3
 
   LAST EDITED ON 06-02-01 AT 01:22 PM (GMT)

LAST EDITED ON 06-02-01 AT 01:21 PM (GMT)

I think it's 2 quite different things isn't it ?

On the one hand I imagine that ones own sexuality as part of a dance company is entirely irelevant ( unless the company is in some way politically motivated that way )

On the other hand, as Fuzzyface says, dance, like any art form, does and should explore sexuality in all it's shapes and forms. Sex and sexuality surely is of importance in most narrative ballets and many abstract ones.

Eugene - on what do you base you comment re gay people being more cultured and sophisticated ?
In my experience they have just as many, and as varied, talents, failings, aspirations and anxieties as the rest of the population

I have long felt that to catergorise everyones sexuality as either 'gay' or 'straight' really misses a whole lot of shades of colourful gray !


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robert

06-02-01, 03:28 PM (GMT)
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6. "RE: Lesbianism in Dance"
In response to message #0
 
   You might also ask why most of the general public assume that all male dancers are homosexual and all female dancers heterosexual. I assume that some women dancers are lesbians and that some male dancers are homosexual but unless someone tried to seduce me (unlikely and too late) it is not my business, and I do not need to know. I personally do not like ballet to be used as sexual propaganda. If sex is important to the plot fine, but if it is to let me know the company or the choreographer is lesbian gay or sado masochist or anything, no!
Historically at the end of the last century men almost gave up dancing and many of the male parts were danced by women, doing everything but big lifts. Some of the great names in ballet have been sexual preditators. Dhiaghilev certainly took advantage of Nijinsky and Massine who were both heterosexuals. Roland Petit and Balanchine were well known for their heterosexual affairs. Frederick Ashton was predominately homosexual but did have passionate affairs with women. Perhaps sensibly most ballerinas have kept their private lives out of the public eye.


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eugene

06-02-01, 11:16 PM (GMT)
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7. "RE: Lesbianism in Dance"
In response to message #6
 
   Carly - as a business man I know too well about the power of the pink pound. It is something I have been chasing .I know that both in income and educational qualification gay people score higher then the national average. I read the marketing mags and I put my money on my assumptions. What more can you ask then that!

The script writers of Ally McBeal also know this!


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Caz

06-02-01, 11:39 PM (GMT)
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8. "RE: Lesbianism in Dance"
In response to message #7
 
  
>The script writers of Ally McBeal
>also know this!

Oh. Well in that case it must be right... Ack!

That's about as intelligent a statement as "all blondes are dumb". Yikes...


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Eugene Merrett

07-02-01, 01:55 AM (GMT)
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9. "RE: Lesbianism in Dance"
In response to message #8
 
   Carly - you are just focusing on the last comment clearly made in jest and ignoring the more important fact I made before that.

When it comes to where I invest money I do not rely on anecdotes etc. Any decent marketing magazine will tell you everything you want to know about every ethnic group - and they will tell you that gays are higher then average income group and and a higher then average education group. They are also disproportionately high in the AB group class.

You should not belittle what I say on this matter because I have gambled alot of money on getting the gay crowd in. I cannot afford to allow prejudices, anecdotes or even my personal experience with people I know to be gay (far to few make any conclusion) cloud my judgement. As I have been fairly succesful I would reckon I am right.


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Caz

07-02-01, 06:52 PM (GMT)
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13. "RE: Lesbianism in Dance"
In response to message #9
 
   >you are just focusing
>on the last comment clearly
>made in jest and ignoring
>the more important fact I
>made before that.


Nope Eugene, I was actually focusing on the previous comment. But hey, I'm only a geneticist so what would I know. In my field research based on assumptions could be highly dangerous, but maybe that's not important in marketing?

I'm rather lost as to where prejudice comes into it though. I didn't notice Carly exhibiting any.

Carly, I think I'll agree with you about the tongue biting...


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Carly

07-02-01, 11:28 AM (GMT)
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10. "RE: Lesbianism in Dance"
In response to message #7
 
   LAST EDITED ON 07-02-01 AT 11:30 AM (GMT)

Eugene.
I'm going to do what I should have done originally - Bite my tongue. ( about most of your comments anyway )
However I would be genuinely interested to know the origin of your statement:

>I know
>that both in income and
>educational qualification gay people score
>higher then the national average.

I wasn't aware of any research that suggested this. Was this a representative group of people ? Paired with what kind of controls ?

Are you simply saying " some rich people are also gay " ?

By the way that was Caz not me above ( Thanks Caz )


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Fuzzyface

07-02-01, 12:00 PM (GMT)
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11. "RE: Lesbianism in Dance"
In response to message #10
 
   I remembered another ballet last night with a slight lesbian theme - does anyone recall Graham Lustig's "Paramor" which SWRB used to dance in the 1980's? It was a very stylish ballet about a 1930's sophisticated set with two central women (Galina Samsova & Marion Tait) flirting with a series of men, and who then proceeded to surprise everyone by kissing and departing together. It was a very good piece especially when Tait was dancing in it.


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Eugene Merrett

07-02-01, 12:29 PM (GMT)
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12. "RE: Lesbianism in Dance"
In response to message #10
 
   Carly - my sourcres are the numerous business and marketing magazines who go to great lengths to stress the importance of the pink pound.

I cannot help feeling that your views on gays are shaped by your political outlook on life. My views are based solely on profit motive which knows no prejudices at all. (They are just another market to me) Ultimately I cannot afford to be wrong whilst you can. As long as I back up my knowledge with money I have the advantage!

But what I will say is that I am only focusing on openly gay people. Perhaps this will be always skewed towards middle class groups who . I think it is much tougher to be gay if you are raised on an tough housing estate. But this is just idle speculation on my part as I am not able to exploit this portential market.

You might think I am callous in my views but ultimately what is a greater indication of gay acceptance then to only consider them to market niche. Charitable considerations are anything but an indication of gay acceptance.


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Nikki

07-02-01, 08:41 PM (GMT)
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14. "RE: Lesbianism in Dance"
In response to message #12
 
   'Eugene - on what do you base you comment re gay people being more cultured and sophisticated ?
In my experience they have just as many, and as varied, talents, failings, aspirations and anxieties as the rest of the population

I have long felt that to catergorise everyones sexuality as either 'gay' or 'straight' really misses a whole lot of shades of colourful gray !'

Carly I completly agree w/ you on this, and Eugene I think that one misses the point when you categorize that all gaypeople are cultured, rich and sophisticated. Its like saying all Indians own a corner shop.

Homosexuality is found in all cultures in all countries in all times. Its one form of human relationship....i only have to look at myself for that. Mixed race asian teenaged girl...and im gay...im not overtly cultured or sophisticated....Im intelligent and I enjoy intellectual activites... but so are so many other people. Im not just 'gay' or a 'girl' or in the '15-18' age bracket...Im not an 'ethnic minority' Im myself.

The one thing I disagreed w/ this thread about in the beginning was making an issue about sexuality. In the end people always generalize,.....stastics and graphs dont show what people are.


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Isaac204

10-02-01, 09:47 AM (GMT)
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15. "RE: Lesbianism in Dance"
In response to message #14
 
   > That's about as intelligent a statement as "all blondes are > dumb".

Uh? I was under the impression that the term "artificial intelligence" was first ascribed to the blonde who died her hair black.


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