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Subject: "Rôles and rolls" Archived thread - Read only
 
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Conferences What's Happening Topic #1258
Reading Topic #1258
Jim

22-01-01, 03:09 PM (GMT)
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"Rôles and rolls"
 
   After the recent episode concerning the principles of principals, the last thing I want to do is to get too esoteric. But twice in the last week I have seen "rolls" written when I would have expected to see "rôles". I might have expected this from an American, of course, but what about:
http://www.tamara-rojo.co.uk/Repertoire.htm

Has anyone else noticed this slovenly trend? Has it imperceptibly crept into our language to the point where it is now be default acceptable?


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: Rôles and rolls Bruce Madmin 22-01-01 1
     RE: Rôles and rolls Jim 22-01-01 3
  RE: Rôles and rolls Bruce Madmin 22-01-01 2
  RE: Rôles and rolls Nikki 22-01-01 4
     RE: Rôles and rolls Jim 22-01-01 5
         RE: Rôles and rolls Viviane 22-01-01 6
         RE: Rôles and rolls Richard J 22-01-01 9
         RE: Rôles and rolls Nikki 22-01-01 12
     RE: Rôles and rolls Ann Williams 22-01-01 7
         RE: Rôles and rolls Jim 22-01-01 8
             RE: Rôles and rolls Bruce Madmin 22-01-01 10
                 RE: Rôles and rolls Carly Gillies 22-01-01 11
                     RE: Rôles and rolls Richard J 22-01-01 15
                 RE: Rôles and rolls Jim 22-01-01 13
                     RE: Rôles and rolls timpow 22-01-01 14
                         RE: Rôles and rolls Enid Austin 22-01-01 16
                             RE: Rôles and rolls Jim 22-01-01 17
                             RE: Rôles and rolls Enid Austin 23-01-01 18

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Bruce Madmin

22-01-01, 03:49 PM (GMT)
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1. "RE: Rôles and rolls"
In response to message #0
 
   Is it really so necessary to debate english rather than dance or ballet?


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Jim

22-01-01, 04:40 PM (GMT)
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3. "RE: Rôles and rolls"
In response to message #1
 
   >Is it really so necessary to
>debate english rather than dance
>or ballet?

The answer is no, it is not necessary. But going on the response to the other thread, it seems that it is a matter of considerable interest. None of us are perfect, but we can strive to be.



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Bruce Madmin

22-01-01, 04:35 PM (GMT)
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2. "RE: Rôles and rolls"
In response to message #0
 
   Sorry Jim, but you caught me on a bad afternoon and I might have put that better. If there is a debate here have it.. but can we then leave the bad English for a while.

Probably worth doing a search because I'll warent (sp?) that there will be a few "English as she is spoke" sites out there, dountless with loads of horrid examples that I and a few others would not really understand!


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Nikki

22-01-01, 05:02 PM (GMT)
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4. "RE: Rôles and rolls"
In response to message #0
 
   Jim I hope that when you mark your students exams that your are not as harsh as this! (i'd get an E) but then as a scientist i persume spelling is not that important...but then im not a scientist so my spelling should be better


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Jim

22-01-01, 06:22 PM (GMT)
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5. "RE: Rôles and rolls"
In response to message #4
 
   >Jim I hope that when you
>mark your students exams that
>your are not as harsh as this!

Nikki, you bet I am
Actually I am not being critical, only curious. If the word "roll" has now become acceptable in the performing arts vocabulary (even if it's just America), then I would like to know (it has, after all, appeared on an "official" website). But if it hasn't, then I think there is no harm in pointing it out. As you can see there are people who post here who are not English, and they might be muchly confused if they turn to their dictionaries and and find that Sylvie ( just to take a random example) is dancing a "lump of bread" in Swan Lake.

I thought your posting about the backstage visit was really interesting and you have motivated me to do it myself sometime

So what subject are you studying yourself?


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Viviane

22-01-01, 06:31 PM (GMT)
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6. "RE: Rôles and rolls"
In response to message #5
 
   JIM !!
Your're the only-one here who use words that are NOT in my dictionary !


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Richard J

22-01-01, 06:47 PM (GMT)
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9. "RE: Rôles and rolls"
In response to message #5
 
   It does seem to cause some interest when these oddities crop up. It shouldn't be difficult to remember the difference between these words though; there is enough role-play in workplace training sessions these days to fill a theatre (and there might, of course, be a roll-call first). (Use of the accent is another matter of debate).

Anyway, Sir Anthony is not yet Master of the Rolls (though he might be master of the roles), and as for Tamara - she's obviously on a roll...

(According to one authority, role comes from the same French root as roll, meaning the roll of MS containing the actor's part. We do go for subtleties when we take words from French......!)


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Nikki

22-01-01, 07:09 PM (GMT)
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12. "RE: Rôles and rolls"
In response to message #5
 
   Take the Backstage tour!(one most support our beloved opera house when we can) i was lucky to get a really nice guide...the subjects i study are : History of Art, Religious Studies, Philosophy, and History


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Ann Williams

22-01-01, 06:34 PM (GMT)
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7. "RE: Rôles and rolls"
In response to message #4
 
   Jim -
if I've got this right, you're saying that that you could understand someone spelling 'roles' as 'rolls' if they were American. Does that mean you think that all Americans are poor spellers? If so, please look at our US sister site, Balletalert, and check on the spelling there. Immaculate, I think you'll find. And anyway Ms. Rojo's website is probably her own handiwork, and as English is not her mother tongue I think she can be excused a few errors (especially given the quality of her dancing).

Have a heart, Jimbo.


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Jim

22-01-01, 06:41 PM (GMT)
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8. "RE: Rôles and rolls"
In response to message #7
 
   > Does that mean you
>think that all Americans are
>poor spellers?

No, not at all! But they do have their accepted idiosynchrasies,
e.g. center, color, aluminum and so on.
All I am asking is: Is "roll" one of them? Or is it just a case of sloppiness? If someone will answer me, I'll go away

>And anyway Ms. Rojo's website is
>probably her own handiwork

Do you really think so? I don't believe it! I bet she's got no idea how to write in HTML!


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Bruce Madmin

22-01-01, 06:50 PM (GMT)
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10. "RE: Rôles and rolls"
In response to message #8
 
   >>And anyway Ms. Rojo's website is
>>probably her own handiwork
>
>Do you really think so? I
>don't believe it! I bet
>she's got no idea how
>to write in HTML!

I actually think it's the work of Yat Sen Chang - the ENB Principal (sp?). Funny old world - I'll be dancing next!


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Carly Gillies

22-01-01, 06:56 PM (GMT)
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11. "RE: Rôles and rolls"
In response to message #10
 
   It certainly seems careless ( at the very least ) to have 2 spellings on the same web page.
Tamara's list looks as if it should start with 'tuna and mayo' rather than 'La Sylphide'


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Richard J

22-01-01, 09:16 PM (GMT)
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15. "RE: Rôles and rolls"
In response to message #11
 
   I think Tamara needs a new site manager; she deserves better.

There's Scottich Ballet, Three Corner Hat, and (the real favourite) Swam Lake. That sounds like one for Esther Williams and Busby Berkeley. On the other hand, thinking of Busby B. and the ENB swans in the Albert Hall........after all, they did flood the arena for "Madama Butterfly"........ you never know.....


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Jim

22-01-01, 07:13 PM (GMT)
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13. "RE: Rôles and rolls"
In response to message #10
 
   >Funny old world - I'll be
>dancing next!

Funny you should say that Bruce - today I got the ROH Period 4 brochure and I noticed that Marriott has a rôle in the Firebird on 8th May



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timpow

22-01-01, 09:13 PM (GMT)
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14. "RE: Rôles and rolls"
In response to message #13
 
   Tim Powell

Bruce I agree with you that we should not get too exited about an error which a spell checker would have corrected so long as the meaning is clear. I do side strongly with Jim in the two cases he has raises wherein the wrong word is used in these cases I do not think we are being pedantic.


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Enid Austin

22-01-01, 09:41 PM (GMT)
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16. "RE: Rôles and rolls"
In response to message #14
 
   Jim said earlier:-

>No, not at all! But they do have their accepted idiosynchrasies,
>e.g. center, color, aluminum and so on.
>All I am asking is: Is "roll" one of them? Or is it just a case >of sloppiness? If someone will answer me, I'll go away

I believe that Americans spell "role" and "roll" the same way as the English; and they also spell "idiosyncrasies" like the English too !

Of course, typos are inevitable, but I agree that we should try and remember, or teach ourselves, the difference between these words which have different meanings.


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Jim

22-01-01, 09:59 PM (GMT)
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17. "RE: Rôles and rolls"
In response to message #16
 
   >and they also spell "idiosyncrasies" like the
>English too !

Enid: Touché!


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Enid Austin

23-01-01, 10:06 PM (GMT)
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18. "RE: Rôles and rolls"
In response to message #17
 
   Okay Jim, I couldn’t resist it This topic has probably run its course now (although it looks as though there might be some mileage in Les Liaisons Dangereuses over in the News, Company . . . area !). I just wanted to say that people probably shouldn’t worry too much about these things in these pages. Many contributors’ talents lie in describing their feelings and observations about ballets and dancers, and it would be a shame if worrying about spelling etc. prevented them from posting. We’d all be the poorer then.


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